border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Lizard Forums > General Lizard Forum.

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-04, 04:52 PM   #1
RepTylE
Member
 
RepTylE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: near Windsor, Ontario
Age: 64
Posts: 996
I think that Linds meant (correct me if I'm wrong) that the sand might be more compacted and not like the looser sand like in a dune with alot of gravel and stones. I think alot of people think dune type of terrain when they think about deserts. By definition on a precipitation basis, the Canadian tundra is a desert area not sure how many dunes they have around there. I'm guessing they would be rare.
__________________
Why are there braille dots on
the keypads at drive up ATMs?
RepTylE is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 11-16-04, 10:57 AM   #2
Linds
Former Moderator no longer active
 
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Christchurch
Posts: 10,251
Country:
Exactly what RepTylE said
Linds is offline  
Old 11-24-04, 04:18 PM   #3
seddleman
Member
 
Join Date: Oct-2004
Location: NC
Age: 58
Posts: 6
We got our son a beardie that was approx 6 months old and it had been kept on sand.They told us to use calci sand so I did.He became impacted.After the vet got him cleaned out,he had to be fed with a syringe as he would not eat.This led to a calcium deficiency.Then he broke his leg wehn he fell about 1 inch off of something he laid on in the basking area.It was (of course) a very bad break and since I knew nothing about this, they talked me into putting a pin in it.From then on, even when he would get where he would eat on his own, we had to feed him by syringe to keep him as healthy as he would get.He did well for a few months,but then the vet ( a different one by then) put him on liquid calcium.A few weeks ago,he died.I think he lived about a year after the broken leg and we had him almost 1 1/2 yrs.I would have had him put to sleep,but the vet had told me the signs to look for, and he didn't show any of them before he died.
We now have another beardie and I just keep a plain glass bottom.I tried paper towels with her, but she loves to attack them and bite them. LOL She is doing great!We had gotten a baby beardie a few weeks ago when we got my sons emerald swift.The baby only lived a few days and I tried to tell the store that I got it from that something was wrong with her, but they blamed it on me.I definitely will not be getting anything from that store again!!At this store and in some of the care sheets I have read, it told me to put the swift on sand too.Thanks to this board, I now know not to do that.
Well, I got a little off track (sorry) but the last vet ( the good one) said that the entire problem started with the sand.
seddleman is offline  
Old 11-24-04, 04:27 PM   #4
marisa
Member
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Posts: 5,936
Send a message via ICQ to marisa Send a message via MSN to marisa Send a message via Yahoo to marisa
There is also a big differance between encountering sand in the wild, even on a daily basis, and being forced to live directly on it day in and day out 24 hours per day.

In any given habitat you'll find all kinds of substrates, not just one. I believe problems arise when we force an animal to spend 100% of its life on one type of iffy substrate such as sand, or even in some cases things like eco earth etc.

We simply cannot create nature in our homes in most cases, which means turning to the safest alternatives....paper etc.

Marisa
marisa is offline  
Old 11-24-04, 04:28 PM   #5
clint545
Member
 
clint545's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep-2004
Location: Newmarket
Posts: 825
Send a message via MSN to clint545
I first started my adult leos out on calci-sand and found that their feces would often have a "coating"of sand. I immediatly changed my subsrate and after about a week their feces were back to normal.
About 5 years ago I had another leo that died from impaction. It was from a corn cob bedding that I found to be absolute garbage. Haven't seen it on the market since.
I keep my Helmeted geckos on sand and so far no problems!
clint545 is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 12-05-04, 03:25 AM   #6
coldblooded
Member
 
coldblooded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov-2004
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Posts: 155
I recently switched to dirt for my savvy. "Black Earth" to be exact. A friend keeps his savvy on play sand and has done so with no problems *so far*, but it doesn't look like a winning combo.

He has to basically hand feed it to keep the rats from being covered in sand though.

The grains of play sand are too big and are very sharp and I think they could potentially harm the little herps and the big ones too.

The calcium carbonate sand is really fine though, isn't it. Shouldn't cause too much of a problem.

As for bark, wood chips, coco husk, ect., I have watched my little one mow back crickets and bark chips at the same time and and spit out the wood. S/he eats the dirt though.

I hate newspaper (I know it's cheap) but I don't know how, or why, anything might ingest it. Do people use shredded newsprint?

I'm still waiting to see if any problems arise from the eating of dirt.

I, personally, have not had any impaction problems (the herps) and hope I never have to find out that newspaper is the "best" (which it's not) substrate.


Good morning,

Mike
__________________
"Crickets are nothing but crunchy and squirt."
0.0.1 V. exanthematicus,

Last edited by coldblooded; 12-05-04 at 03:41 AM..
coldblooded is offline  
Old 12-05-04, 03:37 AM   #7
coldblooded
Member
 
coldblooded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov-2004
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Posts: 155
Might I add that a guy at the pet store near me said that Savannah Monitors "come from a sandy area" and "sand should be fine".
When I asked him about the ingestion of sand with food stuffs he said plainly: "It's O.K., they eat plenty of sand in the wild". Impaction was the last thing I should worry about, I was told.

I didn't feel it was safe using sand, so I used chips, now soil.

I could be wrong.

Mike
__________________
"Crickets are nothing but crunchy and squirt."
0.0.1 V. exanthematicus,
coldblooded is offline  
Old 12-05-04, 09:04 AM   #8
Joses Hut
Member
 
Joses Hut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2004
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Impaction Pictures

With permission, I have been able to gather a few pictures for you to show the effects of sand on a Bearded Dragon's system. I am not here to say whether sand is good or bad, but rather to show these pictures and draw your own conclusion.

Picture 1: A 5 month old dragon and a system flush. The jar shows what came from his system.



Here are the owner comments: BY THE WAY, SHE IS A VERY EXPERIENCED HERP OWNER AND VETERINARIAN. "I bought this little girl from a reputable breeder who uses playsand. Having seen a lot of problems with sand, I asked a veterinary surgeon who specializes in disorders of the bowels to do an epigastric lavage. This is a procedure where pressurized gases, enzymatic cleaners and sterile saline are forced through the digestive system to loosen up anything clinging to the structures inside the bowels. The effluent is collected, dehydrated and analyzed.

That vial is roughly 10% sand, the rest of the bulk is the enzymes from the cleaner, undigested food, feces, and bile salts which all tends to collect together.

This girl would probably have lived for 3 to 5 years before starvation killed her."

Picture 2: Where sand was built up in the bowel and impacted and food and feces could not pass through.



Picture 3: Where the bowel got so enlarged it was actually turning black and dying.



This is also a good article on a trial done on CalciSands. It's a good read.

Article

The really tough thing about sand is there are 2 kinds of impaction. An acute impaction is when a clump totally blocks off the bowel and causes sudden death and Chronic impaction happens on a grain-by-grain basis as sand accumulates in the gut. Weight loss and death are the only symptoms of a chronic impaction and it’s the third most common cause of death in bearded dragons, behind fatty liver disease and parasites. Most owners don’t know their dragon has a chronic impaction until their animal is starving to death because there’s too much sand in the gut to allow them to absorb nutrients.

Finer sands are less likely to form a clump and block off the intestines totally, which is called an acute impaction. However, they are far more likely to stick to the intestinal walls and interfere with nutrient absorption. Most animals do not suddenly die from being kept on sand, they slowly starve to death over a period of several years. It’s only after they die and the owner brings the dragon in for necropsy that they usually find out there was an ongoing chonic impaction of sand.

In an acute impaction where a clump of something blocks off the bowels you will find a bloated animal that isn’t pooping. When you feel the belly you can usually (but not always) feel a hard spot or lump. In cases with a chronic impaction, it happens so slowly over time that most animals are dead and a necropsy is the first indicator of what went wrong. Weighing your animals at least once a month to pick up gradual weight loss can help you detect it more quickly but it’s not an exact science. Internal organs tend to be highly resilient for as long as they can, but once a condition reaches a critical point they fail very quickly. Sometimes there isn’t much weight loss before they die.

Again, I am not recommending one substrate over the other. I think every animal, be it a bearded dragon, snake, or gecko etc. should be given the best possible life in captivity as possible. I don't think these articles and pictures should be used as "scare tactic's" either. I just wanted to show what I have collected over the last little while and thought I would share. We have made the choice not to use any substrates other than carpet or papertowel, but again, OUR CHOICE.

I hope you enjoyed the pictures and articles and hope they help with the discussion on substrates and impaction.

Sean & Laura
Jose's Hut
__________________
Beardies are like potatoe chips, you can't just have one!
Joses Hut is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-2023, Hobby Solutions.

right