Rattle Snake

[SCReptiles]

COME ON people, would it be so difficult to release it NEAR the workplace? Odds are it was there for sometime before it was even noticed!
Who cares if people don't want it there, what they don't know didn't hurt them before. Put the animal back where it belongs: in it's home.

99 out of 100 people would have killed it on site. Luckily, the 1/100 found it and removed it. If you put it back, you sign its death certificate.

And since Mr. Hurd can be so petty as to be insulting, I shall say, I never thought you were smart at all, Chuck.

Of course, I take that as a compliment from you, anything else would mean we think alike. =)

This is just about the funniest post i have read all month. SCR if i am not understanding you right then give me a heads up but if i am, you have the most asinine way of thinking. Of course a wild caught snake belongs in the wild, duh, its common sence dude. Also i have caught and released snakes plenty of times, take the snake a few miles in the woods and release it, having a 2 option way of thinking on this is Stupid. Either sell it or kill it, LMAO.
Just relase it in the backwoods.

Most research concludes that when you relocate adult pit vipers they never assimilate and die within the first year. So, you have killed, I mean relocated plenty of snakes? Good work. Few more like you, we won’t have to worry about collecting snakes, all will be dead. As with Katt, I am quite glad you think my logic is asinine. Reassures me that I am right.

[JD@reptiles]

cant stand being wrong?

[SCReptiles]

If you are referring to me, I have no problems admitting I am wrong, when proven wrong with facts, thus far the only facts that have been presented came from Matt and I, who are in accord on this subject. Everything else has just been opinion, and opinions form people who don’t even study or keep hots, based on that, I don’t see that I have been proven wrong in the least? How do you reason that I am in the wrong?

[JD@reptiles]

the snake could have been moved a little ways away.... and if he did have to take it out of the wild, which he didn't, he could give it to somone experienced instead of trying to sell it. perhaps a local zoo or a local herper. and you were the one that made the presumption that the snake would be killed... and there would also be many other rattlesnakes around that area... so taking this one out and selling it wont make too much of a differience for the safety of the people there.

just a thought.

[SCReptiles]

Moving the snake was not a viable option. A. You move it a little from the site, which is obviously a populated area and someone kills it. B. You move it far away and it kills itself trying to find its way home. Neither of those is a real option now is it?

[JD@reptiles]

you chuck, have no idea how the area was set up. for all you know his work could be in the middle of a forest somwhere, when moving it just a couple hundred yards if that, the snake will be fine. and there is gonna be more around. should they take them all out of the area?

[SCReptiles]

Yes, all venomous snakes that are found in populated areas will have to be removed to save their lives. That is a shame, I don’t like it, but its true. That is the reason we are losing the eastern diamondbacks. People continue expanding into what was once their territory.

[JD@reptiles]

so do you agree yet that its not right to sell this animal? because if he really wants it out of the area he can give it to a zoo or a keeper. see my point? the guy wants to make a quick buck, and we both know it.

[mudflats]

SCR i apologize. I have always been told this was in fact for only places that get to cold, where the snakes need to hibernate. I have caught many pigmy rattlesnakes and relocated them to nature preserves seeing the same individuals a few times healthy and fine, ( thanks to a few free taggings). I guess those where just one of a few that make it. Now is this in all venomous species or just pitvipers? I feel awful for potentially killing all of the species i have relocated. I guess it is going to take more thought next time i have to relocate a venomous species.

[Mustangrde1]

Im going to take a stab at this.

I field collect numerous species some for my collection some for friends some just for picture and release. It would be very difficult to Harm certain species wild numbers based souly on field collection.

Habitat loss, Roads, Human pleasure activities and deaths related and directly caused by humans does far more damage to wild populations yearly then any field collections. With Habitat loss being probably the most destructive force.

Field collection is viable way to procure animals for ones collection where legal or done legally under state laws based on quotas if any apply. Why pay 100 DOLLARS fort an animal when you can collect what you need yourself at a fraction of the cost.

An example is. I wish to breed some Red Ratsnakes yet the local petstore has them for 69.99 so for me to purchase 1.2 breeders would cost me 210.00. Yet i could easily take one night and 15$ in gas to collect three Red Ratsnakes. Thats a no brainer. I will not effect the wild population by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes I know I couldf talk to a private breeder and pic them up for probably 75$ for the three CBB but again 15$ vs 75$. cost effectivly the 15$ always wins plus I get the joy of seeing many other species while looking for them.

As to other Wild Caught animals. There are many very difficult to find animals that rarely are offered for sale or breed so your religated to Imports for exoctics. As to native species However there may be few people actually breeding them due to the low dollar value associated with the reptile thus again field collection may be your only solution.

As to reintrodution after release I will let these three link speak for themselves.

http://coloherp.org/cb-news/Vol-28/c...gReptiles.html

http://www.cnah.org/forum/display_message.asp?mid=212

http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/urbanization/reptiles.html

There are many more surveys and data on the subject but from most reports even the most miniscule of movement to our eyes is giagantic for them.

[~Suntiger~]

I will not effect the wild population by any stretch of the imagination.

Sure, maybe one person taking a few snakes that they're surely entitled to isn't going to have a huge impact on a single species' population.

What about the hundreds of other boneheads that are also operating under this assumption!?!

Simple mathematics!!!

[Mustangrde1]

Given the difficulty in locating reptiles in the field even on the best of conditions it would be very difficult to wipe a species clean. How many are seriously collecting reptiles every day of the year?
You paint a picture of Hundreds even thousands of people collecting every day and that is just not the case. First Field collectors make very little money off the reptiles they collect and sell, thus making it very unproductive from a monetary stand point to do it. Also you must take in to account Laws regulating species and possession and also times of year when factoring in your data. In any of the states or countries where you have Snow or harsh weather conditions for months on end you will not see much if any collecting. Even in the prime collection months your time spent in the field is regulated by other social and financial obligations thus limiting time spent in the field.
Not everyone is collecting these mass amounts you lead us to believe they are by your statements. Also factoring in for CBB breeding and the price wholesale operations will pay a field collector it is again not financially beneficial to any person to try and make a full time occupation just collecting. Now IM not saying over collection cannot be a problem if it is done to species of special concern or threatened nature but then those species are protected or regulated. Also some states and countries have laws forbidding collection or ownership of native species thus again limiting the collecting.
Anyone who believes for one minute that every snake you see in a pet shop is CB or CBB is a fool. No pet shop could maintain a profitable business by selling animals that the breeders know they themselves can get higher dollar prices for. Economically speaking if Joe Petshop owner was to buy a 100 lot of CBB red ratsnakes at say 15 dollars each he would then need to raise the price to at least $40 each to gain profit worth selling the animal. Yet he can buy 100 lot of wc for 3 to 5 dollars each and sell them at the same $40 increasing his profit as a business man which is smarter? Same is true of Ball Pythons do you really think their is that many being breed in captivity yearly to supply the massive demand for this species? Of course not there is roughly 50,000 of them imported yearly and sold off in lots to pet stores for about 2.25 to 5.00 each. Those are but two of the more popular snakes.
Also again how is someone to get snakes that are exotic or not readily breed in captivity if not by some sort of wild collection. In a perfect world yes every snake would be CBB and everyone can get what they want. It is not a perfect world however and as such practices that to one are barbaric, to many others are perfectly legitimate so long as proper conservation and restraint is used. There is no snake in captivity now that does not have its roots from a wild decent thus anyone who owns any snake or reptile has in a since contributed to WILD COLLECTION. Without your demand for something there would be no supply needed!

[JD@reptiles]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Everything else has just been opinion, and opinions form people who don’t even study or keep hots, based on that, I don’t see that I have been proven wrong in the least?0

I missed that part, a lot more people keep and study hots than you may relize. most people are smart enough to know not to go around advertising it thinking they are cool, espishly with pictures of themselves wrangling hots in there avatar. *cough*chuck*cough*


And even though it has nothing to do with what this debate is over.... sorting hot keepers from non hot keepers means nothing, it means you know how to use hooks... i learned how to do that when i was 13...

[Cake]

Hmmmmm....Collecting animals for the pet trade is not seriously affecting the wild populations....Im not to sure what you are basing this statement on, and I would like to know as it is obviously false.

I seem to remember someone collecting about half the population of wood turtles found in two of the larger populations in southern Ontario a couple years back. These population have not recovered, nor will they. As for one person doing it, you are not the only person, dont be nieve enough to think so, this is the same kind of thought that has pushed many speices to the brink of extinction.

As for the rattlesnake in question that started this debate. You cannot simply relocate and expect it to survive, as others have pointed out. Furthermore pit vipers are known to return to their home ranges after relocation, unless moved a substantial distance away, and this will most likely result in the snakes death. Leaving it where it was found will also most likely result in it meeting an umtimly end with a blade of a shovel. the best solution is to donate this animal to a venom lab, zoo or hot keeper that is willing to accept it.

[JD@reptiles]

hey. the farmer where i found the dens didn't like the rattlesnakes there. should he kill them all? take them all out of the wild?