South Florida Grand Slam of hots

[herpetological]

Alex Pan........You make an arguement again without all the facts. Many of the species we work with are locality specific.(I'll explain. Certain species have color, patterns or other morphological differences which make them unique or identifiable to a specific geographic area.) In many cases the only specimens from a specific area are those that were collected from the wild before that area was developed or the environment was so drastically changed that they no longer exist. A good example is the lower Keys form of the Red Rat Snake(Rosy Rat) We have specimens from about half of the historic range. Before the 1950's this was considered a specific sub-species. The problem is that this species no longer exists in the wild as a Lower Keys specific recognizable sub-species.(There are more taxonomic arguements there...) The reason for this is two fold. One, with the introduction of progress came the need for "landscaping". With the ornamental plants came "mainland" red rats snakes. These are larger, different colored, patterned etc. etc. These specimens have intergrated with the "Keys" population and created a hybrid. Two, many of the areas(Upwards of 70%) no longer have any true rosy's or all red rat snakes have been extripated due to development. We have collected specimens for years from these areas. We keep detailed records of where they come from. We only breed specimens to each other that come from the exact locality. Again, many of these no longer exist in the wild. If these programs and collection of specimens were not initiated in the wild years ago....many would not exist. Also, 1.1 is not a viable gene pool when it comes to some species. Therefore, a group sizable enough to develop a genetically diverse group is needed. Hence the collection of more than 1 specimen. When the opportunity arises we still take time to go to specific areas to collect a few more specimens that might match the specific form from a given locality. If they exist......This particular form has a commercially bred comparison, the hypo red rat snake. The hypos were derived from rosy's. They have selectively bred geberation after generation until they no longer resemble the origional form. Obviously, the locality specific specimens we work with are not worth what the hypo's are. Therfore, we obviously have not done this for the money. We have done this to save a specific morph or species/sub-species. Now......If we had waited and not collected specimens when we did we would not have exact locality breeding groups that represent historical populations. In this case it is impossible to release the neonates back into the wild even if we wanted to...It's all concrete and shopping malls! If we follow your argument then they should have been left to be bulldozed out of existence! Also, as has been mentioned, it is not recommended that specimens wether C.B. or W.C. be released into a new location. (Plenty of reasons but, I won't go into them here.) In the case of our planned release of some of the Nerodia specimens...In that particular location water snakes have not existed there for at least 30 years. The man made retention/wetlands area has no current population that can be affected. Therefore, a release here is a viable option. (Oh, did I mention that you should ask before you make judgements???? Oh, YES I DID!) Now, we have another statement that was incorrect. It was mentioned that (By lowrider) a captive bred specimen will not do well if released into the wild. This is untrue. Herps are "hardwired" so to speak, differently than mammals, birds etc. For example snakes are not taught by their parents to feed, avoid predators, mate etc. etc. They operate totally on "hardwired" instinct. We would not have the problem with introduced exotic species here in Florida if that were the case. However, in the case of commercially produced color morphs, they may not survive since they do not resemble the natural patterns of their wild caught relatives. Alex Pan....I like your quote. You should read it AGAIN! "....The wild animal have a tendency of keeping it's balance,and did so over millions of years before humans came." YES, BEFORE HUMANS CAME!!!!!!!!!!!! Either you live in the city and only see animals in your local zoo or small park or you live in an area that has no one for 50 miles or more??? Here, it's a different story. We have 7000 people per week that move to Florida. We do not collect in protected areas or areas that are not in danger of future habitat modification or development. Even in the parks I see mans impact on the environment. Reduced water levels due to drainage modification, environmental extremes brought about by habitat changes, destruction of the environment by unscrupulous off-road vehicle use(This does not include everyone) etc. etc. When I was collecting cottonmouths we traveled through a park area(Not collecting there) and we came across a cottonmouth that was still alive BUT, it had just been chopped up with a machete! Gee, if that had been a specimen that was collected at least it or it's progeny could have gone on to produce more specimens in captivity or educate the public. IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEAD! Why not jump on these people! As I mentioned there was an area of the highway with hundreds of dead water snakes. Why not criticize the drivers or a state that feels funding is better slated to the big popular furry animals Also, population densities for herps are much different in the south. Particularly when it comes to species like water snakes, ribbons, garters etc. During one study in S. Florida along a 5 mile stretch, water snakes were found to have a population density in the thousands. (I'd have to look up the specifics so don't quote me directly) You also, want to argue the "Right to collect or take snakes from the wild". Well waht gives you the right to own any being? (A whole entire argument in itself!) It has already been mentioned that some species should not be collected. Many do not do well in captivity due to specific diets or enviromental needs. I totally agree with this. However, if a person has a project and is working to find out how to fill these needs....obviously they will have to be taken out of the wild. Obviously it would entail collecting more than one specimen. Now....Do we collect specimens now and learn what we can, make our mistakes now or do we wait until there are only a handful left in the wild and we cannot afford to make mistakes! I was going to go into the other argument about how many preserved dead specimens we need in museum collections as well....But, this is getting long and that would be another argument to take up another page!!! LOL's!

[AlexPan]

herpetological,

I agree with you 100% that collecting specimens is very important and that it had helped before.

But i guess you have missed my point, like i said before, i am by all mean not against people keeping snakes and wild specimens, ONLY IF they do not exist in captivity already! I am by no means saying go and let the snakes get bulldozed over! All i'm trying to say is, if the certain area is NOT under any threat do being constructed over, then take the species only that do not exist in captivity!

[JuliusSqueezer]

I think taking one or two now and then is a non issue....driving up and down the roads filling trash cans with cornsnakes or something is just all wrong though. Most snakes taken from the wild at least by anyone I herp with are taking them more from yards and off busy streets at night where if left there, by morning they would be a greasy spot with crows picking at it. Most of what I "take" from the native wildlife are either calls to come get a ratsnake out of a basement or someone was kind enough to do that part for me and leave it at my door. Most of these are wormsnakes, ringnecks and dekayii...nasty little bug eaters. Most of them are probably still happily rooting around under my shrubs outside.

I took a grey ratsnake last year from way out in the middle of nowhere at last year's camping trip because the park rangers gave BWSmith a wish list for their display. I brought them the ratsnake and a copperhead. They were for educational purposes and I think the cause for that will do more for the snakes than that one particular snake living in the wild.

BW has another grey ratsnake I took in that I scraped off the interstate in Alabama one night with a prolapsed cloaca and several broken ribs. I kept him for a year rehabbing him and turned him over to Brian's educational program. That snake can never be released. He also has a Black ratsnake that I plucked out of someone's basement and there was no place near by to release it and the weather was getting cold fast. Now I have another black ratsnake from a similar removal that seems to be a hybrid from a corn x black mating...and I seem to be stuck with him lol...

Kingsnakes around here aren't shy and I have taken countless kings that were seconds from being on the ouchy end of a hoe.

What I am getting at is...trust me...a LOT of what we take, we have to or they die. The examples I gave are just a couple of random recent rescues...I have taken hundreds over the years and I'm sure Brian has too.

I rarely keep anything I catch but sometimes I do. here in Georgia the laws are weird and if you want a cornsnake or any nonven native species, you get a permit and go catch them because it is illegal to sell them. Native hots are legal without permit. But you can't just go to a petco and pick up a canebrake or a pygmy. Releasing back to the wild is seldom an option unless there is a safe place for them really close to where they were caught. Studys have shown that snakes released even a mile or two from where they were caught seldom survive a year....maybe 20% is a rough estimate. But to most people, I suppose out of site out of mind is the cliche` of the day. It feels good to release an animal back to the wild. But it feels really bad if you do it and know it's odds of survival are near nill.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...Alex...another thing to consider...There is a huge difference in taking a snake in anywhere in Canada and one in Georgia where BW and I live. Down here they are everywhere. The eastern Box turtles that you guys pay 200 bucks for....I see about 10 or so a day in the summer time without looking for them. sliders and painted turtles...I might get muddy a little but I could easily fill an order for a thousand or so turtles for someone if I had the urge in a weekend....maybe even a day lol. I just don't think down here that some kid wanting to keep a kingsnake he caught is ever going to put a dent in the kiingsnake population here.

[SCReptiles]

You continue to change your argument and back off from the position you took to begin with, but either way you are still wrong. We (collectors) started this hobby and you think you should demonize us with board pointless statements. Look man, go hug all the tress you want and vote for the Canadian version of the Democratic Party, but don’t keep snakes if you are so opposed to removing them from the wild. None of us come over to the corn snake forum and ridicule you, so I, for one, expect the same from you. If you got a question, ask it. But knock off your ridiculous statements and threats to call the police.

[Mustangrde1]

Every one, preserve nature! Leave it the way you found it! NEVER take anything from the wild!

I agree with you 100% that collecting specimens is very important and that it had helped before.

Alex which of these three statements do you wish to go with. A says { NEVER TAKE } B says you say its ok but only from the past collectors or for new species. You cant have it both ways either its NEVER or its OK!

You guys mentioned that it is good to take them from the wild if there is over population. Well wrong again! the wild animals have a tendency of keeping its balance, and did so for millions of years before humans came!

Before making statements such as the above one try some research. Species that have suffered and would have been seriously declined or even been lost without mans intervention are vast. Where man has caused most of these problems Man also has solved many of them to the best of our abilities to date.

If you want to learn then ask questions. But making threats towards people are foolish especially when you obviously know nothing about the laws. I would also bet you know very little about conservation work from your statements.

[Julliet]

sigh.....Sorry I am just getting caught up on everything due to work. Now Alex..if you reread my post you will find that I said that they had to be thinned out....due to Human Developement of the land. Now if you wish to allow the animals to reclaim that land then I am sure they would eventually repopulate it as long as we stayed the hell away. Shame is there are subspecies and species lost every day to human developement of the natural habitat. Those that are now extinct due to our carelessness with nature.

As far as my statement about you rereleasing your particular snakes....please forgive me that was called sarcasm, the finer point of which does seem to elude some people.

as far as rereleasing some specimans back into the wild. the area I have done so with sustained the same species prior to thier extinction in this area due to developement. I check them periodically ( and they come to visit) and they do seem to be doing well. I would not have introduced something which would not be indigenous ( forgive me I don't have spell check on this thing) to my area nor that would not have prey on to which survive. When they first started to develope this area I had a pregnant water snake show up and invite herself into my home. I gave her refuge and a good meal, she repaid me with 54 babies since water snakes are not quite what I am equiped to comfortably keep for long periods it made sense to release these little guys back to a lake area close by that developement had stopped on for monetary reasons. The snakes had been cleared however underbrush had started a comeback and there was plenty of insect larve for the babies to feed on. I am happy to say I now often see these watersnakes where before you could walk the 40 plus acres and never see a snake. I wouldn't release a mamba here although it probably here in south florida survive with our temprate climates.

Alot of the snakes that are rescues in fact most can never be rereased into the wild. Ray is right and to introduce a foreign pathogen would probably wipe out entire colonies. Much like man does.

However prior to making inflamatory statements I would suggest you go back a few nature refuges and wildlife refuges and talk to people read a bit and maybe learn what true conservation is about . we all have to be here on this planet it is time we start learning to be responcible for it's well being.
Strip mining , burn off, and continual planting has caused massive damage to the atmosphere and the ecology. Since we need to farm for food ....and I am sure you like that car you drive and to stay warm at night, we need to also learn how to replace what we use by replanting and allowing nature to reclaim what it can. It is only common sense to do so. We can never erradicate the damage that past generations have caused due to ignornace and greed, we can see to it that the gifts that are left that nature gives up continue to survive.

[Mustangrde1]

Barbarian report for Chuck.... You left 3 days to early Friday was great on the prairie. 1 Mocc 2 pig 4 red rat 2 yellow rat 16 ribbons 3 dekays and some of them venomous tropper collecting garters.

[edh]

Hello,

I have absolutely no intention of offending anybody. I am just curious about all the people catching snakes from the wild and keeping them in captivity.

I mean what do you do with them?? Are they for breeding, selling, or just for the fun of it?

Let me point out that looking for snakes (even here in Holland, where we have 3 species of snakes, and only 1 venomous species) and taking pictures of it, is one of my favorite past times.

I imagine that there are different laws concerning collecting snakes in the USA, for instance collecting Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia is not allowed, but what about Eastern Diamondbacks or other species wich (I understand) are also endangered because of loss in habitat??? Is it legal to catch them or do you need permits???

I understand that some people catch them to protect numorous morfological variations, but I am not aware off endangered morfological mutated red rat snakes, ribbonsnakes, ot whatever that are not being bred in captivity? Please correct me if I am wrong. So why catch them?? I mean red ratsnakes is one of the most popular snakes in Europe and by far the most of them is CB.

CB reptiles are always preferred over here (except by most animal traders), even if they are more expensive. I can only imagine importing WC specimens of species that are not being bred yet, or are in desperate need off new blood (eg Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia)!

I must admit that I did not read all the previous posts, so if it has been mentioned before: I apologise (also for all my spelling errors!).

Again: no harm intended!

Cheers,

Erik

[Mustangrde1]

Erik. with species such as ribbons and redrats people do like to get new fresh blood in their collections and I have had many people ask me for fresh wild caughts. There is certainly no shortage of them and keep in mind there are not as many collecting as one would think. Also I only collect what i concider to be topnotch specimens and only what i have need for. Many of the animals i see i wont collect just move off the road. Also another reason is people need feeder snakes for other species.

Breeding some of the other species is also a reason for collection I am trying to get a large enough base of Coral snakes together to try captive breeding of them.

As to Easterns Diamonds. Collecting from areas where houses are being built at incredable rates of speed is more of saving the animal. Most people would just as well kill it as let it alone. However collecting from National parks or other areas protected from human incouchment is something i personally wouldnt do. Its a shame when you see one of these truly amazing animals hacked up by some home owner simply because they were in its yard if you get my meaning.

[cobraman]

" but what about Eastern Diamondbacks or other species wich (I understand) are also endangered because of loss in habitat??? Is it legal to catch them or do you need permits???"

Erik, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes are NOT endangered or protected. They are on a list called "species of special concern". And a venomous reptiles permit is required to have them or any other venomous snake in Florida (where Scott is).



"CB reptiles are always preferred over here (except by most animal traders), even if they are more expensive."


There would never have been such a thing as "captive born" if someone had not have collected a wild caught pair in the first place.

Blessings,
Ray Hunter

[edh]

Erik. with species such as ribbons and redrats people do like to get new fresh blood in their collections and I have had many people ask me for fresh wild caughts. There is certainly no shortage of them and keep in mind there are not as many collecting as one would think.

Mustangrde1: Ik can relate to this argument if it concerns endangered species. For instance I would like to obtain fresh blood for my Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia : kind off impossible!!!!

But I can imagine that over the years a lot of different bloodlines of redrats and ribbons have been caught, so that refreshment is not necessary. I am aware of Ribbons that have inben bred for the 12 th generation, without visible malfunctions.

But I can imagine that's just fun collecting snakes when it is legal, maybe comparable with going fishing???

Breeding some of the other species is also a reason for collection I am trying to get a large enough base of Coral snakes together to try captive breeding of them.

I find this to be a good reason for catching snakes.

Erik, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes are NOT endangered or protected. They are on a list called "species of special concern". And a venomous reptiles permit is required to have them or any other venomous snake in Florida (where Scott is).

Ray. Thanks for the update!! I am afraid I have let myself be misled by various television shows ( some episodes off National Geographic for instance). How does you permit system work in Florida?? I am interested in learning about as many different legislation systems as possible.

There would never have been such a thing as "captive born" if someone had not have collected a wild caught pair in the first place.

You are right! But is catching snakes still necessary when species are easily bred in captivity (considering my previous arguments)???

Cheers,

Erik

[Mustangrde1]

Erik. All you need to do is go to various states websites for their Game and Fish dept and you can find most laws. Fishing is a good example of snake catching. Some of it is Catch n Release some of it is catch and keep. Most the ribbons,dekays and smaller ratsnakes i catch go to the catch and keep for my corals that wont take pinkies. It only takes a few though so the others get catch and release. Why pay 7 to 15 dollars for feeders when i can get them free.

[anacondaman]

we all share one thing in common in this site....we love herps.....this wonderful hobby was started by people like Mustangrde1 who go out and collect..... im sure Must. only collects those snakes that are either common or he has a permit for...or he wouldnt post it....and if he did collect a snake of threatened value he would release soon afterwords in the same area.....the fact of the matter is....if ur against Mustang. then ur against the hobby......and until you have no snake, dont post these hypacritical views.

my 2 cents

adam

[edh]

we all share one thing in common in this site....we love herps.....this wonderful hobby was started by people like Mustangrde1 who go out and collect.....

Anacondaman: You are totally right!!! I certainly love herps! I also agree that people like Mustangrde1 intitiated our hobby al long time ago!

if ur against Mustang. then ur against the hobby......and until you have no snake, dont post these hypacritical views.

I find this to be a little bit strange post . How can I be against the hobby when I love to keep herps??? I am definetely not against anybody (except those who are in to venomoids or other "unnatural" things), but I will post my questions and arguments! I think it is very important to discuss a certain subject, not just take something for granted (just my humble opinion). At least that is the way I have learned a lot (and I am still learning).

Most the ribbons,dekays and smaller ratsnakes i catch go to the catch and keep for my corals that wont take pinkies

Mustangrde1: For the record: I am not judging you or anything, I am just curious!! As I said before I can relate to this reason perfectly. I am just wondering (SORRY): are you not afraid of cross infecting your Corals by feeding them WC snakes??

Just a thought: no harm intended!

Erik