Trip to Indonesia

Bighead · 03-25-04, 05:04 AM

My brother is moving to (what used to be) Irian Jaya, Indonesia next spring. I haven't done a whole lot of field herping in the past, but my interest is growing. I will probably be visiting him when I go on my honeymoon in about 1.5 years (screw hawaii). Should I entertain the thought of importing anything? By then I will be living in the states, so keep that in mind. Also, I won't even consider dealing with hots, as I don't have any experience. Do any of you know of anything interesting I might start looking into?
I know that if I decide to do it, it will be expensive and lots of paperwork, etc, but I figured now is the time to start if I want to do this. Thanks for any help you might offer.

-Jordan

Bighead · 03-26-04, 02:41 AM

I must say, I was expecting some emphatic, "Don't bother, you don't know what a pain or how expensive it we be" comments by now. Lol. What about bring back some IJCPs for fresh breeding stock or something?

AlexPan · 03-26-04, 01:02 PM

Bighead, If i have understood you correctly, you want to catch some herpes and bring them to your house?

Well i am absolutely shocked! How can some one thinking of keeping wild animals as pets! I for one, am keeping snakes and soon starting to breed them to only fly back to California meet up with the scientist, and let them go to freedom after i'm finished checking for unwonted parasites and stuff.

We as herpers (atlest most of us i think) breed the animals to sell/give to other people so that no more animals will be taken from the wild!! No paper work will fix it, all paper work is you pay government money and they let you keep the animal!

We as herpers should think from the animal's point of view. I know every one here treats their pets really good, but still the animal which was taken from the wild is used to slider around for many miles, which i think very few people would have a chance to have such an exhibit for them.

I do encourage people to keep pets for many reasons, one of the reasons is, people population is growing, there for we destroy more and more forests, so by having snakes etc. as our pets, we help to preserve the animals for the future generations even if their natural habitats will be destroid.

The point i'm trying to make is, keep pets but NEVER EVER take anything from the wild. Paper work does not change the way the animals feels!

Dani33 · 03-26-04, 01:09 PM

I don't think he meant taking them from the wild. I think he meant that he wanted to purchase them and wanted to know what procedures he needs to know of and what to do to bring them back.

marisa · 03-26-04, 01:15 PM

Alex Pan your claim of letting captive bred snakes go into the wild is just as bad! Are you talking about Kingsnakes?

Without SERIOUS years of effort into a detailed relocation program, the chances are not one of your snakes will survive in the wild. The same parasites and things you will rid them of are some of the things that PROTECT wild snakes! Captive snakes being set free will quickly succumb to the parasites when left to eat wild prey suddenly. They will have no idea of the location, prey items, or flora and fauna that will be introduced internally to them.

I have yet to hear of successful captive bred snake release as there is no way to track them, I haven't even heard of HIGHLY credited establishments even trying this, let alone a civilian with limited resources and without a detailed plan or breeding program.

Marisa

Auskan · 03-26-04, 02:06 PM

AlexPan, you seem shocked that he would consider keeping "wild" animals, but snakes ARE wild animals, even when bred in captivity.

And I agree wholeheartedly with Marisa. A snake that has been bred and lived its whole life in captivity doesn't stand a chance of surviving in the wild. They may consider themselves to be great hunters, but the reality is that we feed them - they don't have to develop superior hunting skills. And ridding them of parasites prior to release is going to be a wasted effort as they will pick up parasites immediately after release into the wild - especially if they are lucky enough to be able to catch something to eat. Then, having no resistance to those parasites, they will become sick and die - if they don't become food for another predator first.

Yes, snakes are bred in captivity to avoid taking more specimens from the wild. But the idea has never been to release captive bred specimens back into the wild. That would be irresponsible.

AlexPan · 03-26-04, 02:06 PM

Marisa,
I have being researching about the idea of releasing my California King snakes in the wild for 6 month know, and have aquared much knowledge. When i said i'm gonna get the scientist to take off the parasites etc, i mean not the parasites in particular, but all stuff which will come from canada BC that is not native in California so not to introduce anything new there.
Lots of people are sceptic but i'm am so sure of my 2 year releabation plan, that no matter what it takes i'm gona complete it successfully!

AlexPan · 03-26-04, 02:16 PM

Auskan, yes captive bred snakes are still wild. But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets! The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one.

Also i have a perfect plan of which i'm not gona say nothing yet until its atleast in progress, to make sure that captive bred snakes will not get used to people, and will have to kill their own pray.

marisa · 03-26-04, 02:22 PM

No offense but I am afriad you will be killing all the snakes you set free.

You are telling me you are going to be able to INTRODUCE natural things into their systems? No. They will have NO defense when set free.

BTW It doesn't take a "scientist" to remove parasites. And he CANNOT put them into a snake.

Also without permits and compliance from the areas you are doing this, its HIGHLY illegal. But yeah good luck with the murde...I mean the release.

Marisa

Matt_K · 03-26-04, 02:28 PM

Quote:

But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets!

So umm.. Where did the first CB snakes come from??? Im quite sure they didn't just show up in someone's rubbermaid or aquarium...

Auskan · 03-26-04, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlexPan
Auskan, yes captive bred snakes are still wild. But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets! The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one.

Alexpan, I can't make sense of this paragraph. You say the snakes which lived in the wild will die. Well yes. All living animals die at some point. So will any that you release into the wild - probably before they've had a chance to breed. You say they have an unfortunate life if kept as pets. Well, I'll leave that in the "that's just your opinion" barrell. Most responsible snake owners try to give their pets an excellent quality of life. I don't consider that mine have an "unfortunate" life at all.

Then you state "The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one". Precisely. Isn't that the exact reason why its not a good idea to then release them to the wild? Because they don't know the "other" world? Because they are used to people from day one and not used to fending for themselves?

AlexPan · 03-26-04, 03:02 PM

Auskan, I said IF the snakes are kept as pets which came from the wild then they will most likely die.

And thats why i'm working on a 10by 12 meter room, in which i'm gona poot the captive bred snakes as well as mice etc. In that room they will not see any people and will have to catch mice that runs around them selves like in the wild.

AlexPan · 03-26-04, 03:08 PM

Matt_K, so what you saying is that its alright to take wild animals to keep as pets?!
And yes the first snakes were captured but that had to be done in order to start a captive bred colony BUT, now people just catch them to not have to pay for them, but those snakes are already available in captivity.

Auskan · 03-26-04, 03:33 PM

AlexPan, you are mistaken. Snakes that are captured in the wild and kept as pets do not necessarily die. I think that was Matt_K's point - that all captive bred snakes come from wild caught stock originally and obviously their wild caught ancestors did not die since they successfully reproduced.

Also, the number of people who catch snakes to avoid paying for them is minimal. I'm sure there are some - and shame on them - but for most people, buying a pet snakes is much easier than going out and finding one. Plus, its not necessarily cheaper, as ridding a wild-caught of parasites can be costly. Not to mention that when buying a captive-bred snake, you can have your choice of color morphs.

Your idea of a room to allow them to get used to wild conditions is commendable but not necessarily practical. You cannot possibly simulate wild conditions. A room in a building is still shielded from most elements (you can't have rain/storms/frost/dew etc). In the wild, snakes sometimes have to travel great distances in order to find prey. In a 10x12 room, you are still feeding them. And unless you are going out and catching wild mice/rats to set loose in that room, you still won't be giving them access to the parasites they will encounter in the wild. Even if you did that, you would still be introducing parasites into captive bred snakes that weren't born with the ability to defend themselves from those parasites. In that small a space, you still can't put very many snakes without them occupying the same space and stressing each other out. How will you provide hot/cool spots so they can thermoregulate, since a room, unlike the outdoors will not have sun. I could go on and on, but I won't. Its a fine idea - just not a practical one, and I urge you to reconsider - or at least put off your time frame until you are old enough to realize what a ridiculous notion you are proposing.

marisa · 03-26-04, 03:42 PM

Alex Pan not only is most of you logic faulty, so I won't even bother writing the novel this would take but....

you say you will feed them mice? What about their NATURAL food? Do you have any idea what you are doing? These snakes will DIE. Mice and rodents play a part in wild diets, but so do lizards big time, as well as a portion of LIVE snakes. You cannot feed them these things while also monitering parasite levels (because these items carry parasites especially when fed live)

Frankly you are an amatuer like the rest of us trying to do something 100% the wrong way. You should NOT be letting ANY snakes loose, not to mention its ILLEGAL to do so in almost all areas.

Bighead I am sorry your thread got hijacked, I just cannot BELIEVE Alex Pan and his half thought out, terrible plan for these poor snakes he is sentencing for death. As for importing exporting there are some great people on this site that know much about this and hopefully they will get a chance to reply before Alex fills the thread up with more crack pot ideas. Again I am sorry for participating in this hijakc of your thread.

Marisa