New Lampro (Not sure of locale)

Ken, you kind of proved the point with Lichanura trivirgata saslowi the mid-baja rosy. I don't see anyone saying you don't own a nice L. g. californiae or even that it has the mendota 'look' that could be achieved with only one mendota parent or throw back several generation down the road, but if someone tells me they have a San Felipe locale mid-baja rosy it means something different, if I get a Marfa, Hwy 277, or Loma Alta locale alterna I expect something very specific and the people that are known breeders keep the records to back their claims. The trick with a locale specific animals is that it has to be proven it is the claimed animal otherwise it is JUST a mid-baja, alterna, cali-king. You want to say it looks like something more specific, who cares. You want to claim it is something specific the proving is up to you.

[Invictus]

Ok, you two have made your points as well, except for the Guyana/Suriname question. Those are NOT a different sub-species, and be it from another country or even another locale within the same state, the point is the same - you identify it as being one or the other because it looks like one or the other. I was merely wondering why the purism only seemed to apply to king snakes in this instance. Rev, you made a really good point with the San Filipe etc. Mid-Bajas. I do see the point now. I don't agree with it, since I feel that this particular locale of king snake is so far different in appearance that there is only one possible way that you could get a snake that looked like this one, but I do see the point.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Vanan
[B]Oooh, touchy are we.

Not at all.. you signed one of your posts "A bloody purist", so I jokingly made reference to it.

The main reason behind my disapproval is that, why in the world would a locality caliking (not even that common in the US) show up in a damn petstore in Edmonton.

Oh, I dunno... how do all these damn Australian pythons end up in Canada? You might as well be asking this question. The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare. Maybe the breeder needed the money. Maybe he had a suplus of them. Who the hell knows?
It's a loaded question.

[Katt]

I just want to point out, Yunan's are a locality and are a sub-species.

Invictus,
the assusie pythons in NA are here b/c they were allowed to be imported until Australia closed it's borders many many many years ago.

was merely wondering why the purism only seemed to apply to king snakes in this instance.

<laugh> You have NO idea, how FANATICAL rosy boa enthusiasts are about locality. Rosies exist solely in isolated locales, heck, check out greybands where people go by which side of the road they find snakes from.

If you had a group of animals you were claiming locality on, then hey, we'd be getting on your case about all of them, not just the kingsnake. In this specific case, your king is a king, and that's why we're on it.

The black belly doesn't mean much. Look at Luci, Vanan posted, she's got a black belly, it just looks milky b/c of the angle, shedness, and flash.

The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare

Well if you found only ONE site selling them, that sounds pretty darn uncommon to me.

Keep in mind, breeders, don't just sell to one lone pet store. Most stores buy from wholesalers, or locals. If somehow, a wholesaler got a hold of some Davis/Mendota locale why aren't we seeing more of these in Canada? How does ONE SINGLE pet store in one of the more northern parts of Canada get such a specefic locale of cal king? It's not impossible, but HIGHLY unlikely.

Believe what you will about your king, but without PROOF, your claim has no backing. Claiming publically that your king is such and such, is false information. Neither Vanan nor I, nor Rev will get into any trouble, since it's not ours, but we're informing you of your mistake in claiming locale on your snake. Do you really want a BUYER (if by chance you breed her) coming back on you and asking for proof of locale and with you not having any, getting a bad name for yourself?

Understand what we're saying or not. This is a public forum, and by making an example of you, we're hopefully preventing more similar questions by newbies about locale and type.

Just b/c a snake has one or two, or a few relatives that were ABC locale, does not make it ABC locale. ALL RELATIVES, ALL SNAKES IN THE LINEAGE MUST BE ABC locale. Does that make sense, your snake, may have had a grandparent of Davis or Mendota or Randy's logcabin by the creek locale, which has passed on a "look", but that doesn't meant it is that locale.

Melanism and black bellies are rampant in cal kings.

[marisa]

I think the problem with the locality lable is that this king may indeed look 100% like a Davis/Medota king, with black belly etc. BUT it's mother could have been a black and white mojave cali while its father was Mendota...possibly not a perfectly accurate example, but if you were to breed this with another Mendota king, blood not from the locality is still in the hatchlings via (possible) one of the grandparents since you don't know lineage making them not pure localities in some way to some people. So as a safegaurd against a muddy pool of locality kings and all locality kings turning into just line breed or morphs instead to achieve the look, people do not always like to see such labels unless it can be proved this snake came from that locality or directly as a result from snakes who did.

I dunno. Either way, nice king. lol
Marisa

[Vanan]

The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare.

Prices of snakes do not always reflect how rare they are. S FL mole kings are pretty darn rare and a few dedicated enthusiasts are trying very hard to preserve them (you know who you are ). Don't see a price tag in the thousands for them.

Like I've mentioned several times, I've got nothing against your snake (in fact I darn well love it!) but calling it a locality with no proof is unethical in this hobby. And again, any locale look of snakes can be outcrossed and regained again.

[Invictus]

Thanks for the info guys. Sorry if I came across as being a bit confrontational here, but it does get frustratng to me... I know it's a CalKing, but it's not a normal CalKing - so I find out what it most likely is, and I like to have a name for its particular appearance, and I find out I can't ethically use that locale name.. so basically I have something that MIGHT be exceptionally rare in Canada but can't prove it... ARGH! Ya know?

I'll see if I can find the breeder.

[Katt]

Hey Invictus, that's cool man. Not trying to get on your back, but you know, us crazee herpers take things so seriously sometimes. That's especially true of us, b/c we're both hardcore. <laugh>

You could say it's mendota type, or mendota look a like. Something that gives an idea of what it looks like, without claiming anything, ya know!

Glad everything's been resolved peacefully!

[Vanan]

Sorry if I came across as being a bit confrontational here,

A bit?! are u kiddin?! LOL! j/k man! No worries!

You could try finding a similar looking king and breed Mendota type calikings. Just make sure to let people know that they're not pure locale. Same thing with hybrid breeders. I'm mostly against hybrid breeders cos of the bad ethics amongst some. Some don't even know what crosses are involved but sell em as pure stock. Ok for someone buying a family pet but not ok for a future breeder. And then again there are great hybrid people like Mark Isbell!

Anyways, post more pics of your "Mendota" caliking man!

[SerpentLust]

Whatever he is, he's a beauty

Jenn

the Guyana/Suriname question is a good one. Like several of the greyband locales the phenotype has a variation in looks so visually 2 locals can look the same. Once again it comes to record keeping, specialists know where the animal was collected. A Bcc collected in Surinam is a suri, collected in Guyana it's a guyanan. This is the exact reason locale specific breeders, sellers, and buyers are so picky about records and lineage charts. Good luck finding the breeder, and if he does have records be sure to get copies for yourself.

[gonesnakee]

Quite a little thread ya got over my little drive to Canmore LOL I'm sure Andrea is glad to see/hear that you have become so involved with this girl. Good Luck Mark

[Scales Zoo]

I wish I would have found this thread earlier, I have so much I could have said along the way.

First, yes Vanan is both a king snake freak and a hardcore locality freak. Mix those two together and you have very passionate person (remember tuesday night vanan?)

I've got some input on the surinam - guyanan boas.

Most breeders of these obtained breeding stock, sometimes directly from the importers - because, they too are locality freaks.

I know people who go down there and hand pick snakes, and can tell you what rock they found the snake by. I don't know of many second generation guyanans or surinams available in Canada - and there are still few cb specimens available.

If I want a cb surinam boa, I don't buy it from a jobber or a store, I would buy it from a breeder that I know and trust.

So, the babies sold from these pairings can be called surinam boas.

Now, there are those who breed "red tailed boas". I remember 3 years ago, we got a boa that looked just like a surinam. We asked people if they thought it was a surinam, and I learned that it was ajust a very pretty common boa - and if I bred it to a bcc or bci, I risked creating mutts. The snake is now a "pet" somewhere else, it will not be bred - because I don't know if it is a bcc or bci or a cross.

If it gets bred to a bci in the future - oh well, bci's are pretty much non locality specific - unless you find one of the breeders working with true locality snakes - advertising them as such.

Also, one other thing... as far as locality snakes are concerened, I would never even trust what is typed on any wholesale list one finds in Canada. There are many reasons for this, and I won't get into it any more deeply- but I suspect you've seen a few of them, and realize some of what I am saying.

So, what I am saying, is you are a lucky man to have such a nice kingsnake, but you should pair it up with a snake of your choice and sell the babies as kingsnakes.

If you find one that looks just like it, you are well within your rights to sell the babies as "type" snakes. But if someone finds out you are selling snakes as true locality snakes - when you can't truly prove lineage and such, it will be detrimental to your future reputation as a breeder.

It might suck, but it is the way things work.

Ryan

[Vanan]

(remember tuesday night vanan?)

Ryan! It's supposed to stay behind the bedroom doors!! Shhh!!

[Invictus]

Well, Erin and I talked about it, and I think we're going to breed this lovely girl with our Albino CalKing and just sell the babies as "Black bellied CalKings het for albino". When my male lavender king gets older, who knows... maybe I'll be producing some double hets. We'll see.