feeding

[Zoe]

I dunno, I think it would be worse to suffocate than to be knocked really hard on the head.

Do you think you would suffer if someone grabbed you by the legs and whacked you against a wall or desk?

Not if you hit me hard enough! hehe.

Also, when I whack my mice, I whack them hard. The first time I did I check for a heart beat and eye response right after, and of course there wasnt either. Not only that, but my mice were tame and not afraid when they were in my hand. And it takes maybe a 1/2 second to get from the air to the side of the table? I really doubt they feel the same panic they would when being suffocated.

But yeah, there really is no way to kill an animal humanely (heck, even euthanizing them is preced by a pinprick!). But I know either severing the spinal column or knocking right dead against a wall/desk is the quickest way to do it.
Maybe I'm just paranoid of suffocating, I mean I would HATE to drown or be choked! I'm slightly asmatic, so that could be why too.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by marisa
You cannot judge people because they do not buy frozen. You didn't just share your feelings, you called the methods that most of the snake community uses to kill mice, "cruel" when in fact someone killed the mice in YOUR freezer! Regardles how it was done, that just seems a little crazy to me.

When did I judge people? I never said 'you are cruel because you kill mice such a way' did I? No. All I said was I think it cruel. Its opinionated, this is a discussion/debate. I'm not going to reiterate myself.

And, neither do you.

Lol Didn't I just say that!? Feel like were going round in circles here...

You have less if anything since you have admitted you do not practice this method, and I do. I have killed about 1500 or more mice this way. So in fact, if anyone wants a credibility arguement, you couldn't participate because you have tried NONE of these things yourself. Which (experience) would be the starting point to any arguement.

No. I like the way you side-stepped my comment. So would you think it cruel if people were whacking mice against a wall or desk or with a blunt instrument for pleasure? Or would you think its ok because they died instantly?

I am SOOO happy you live in a wonderful place that sells cheap frozen feeders. How many snakes do you own BTW? I'd like to know. Because if you are feeding more than a few, you try ordering frozen with MY *local* prices!

I don't believe I ever said it was cheap in my area, I just said they were available. 25 pinkys for £10 (about $17). Another thing, I've owned mice as pets before and I do not believe that the upkeep i.e. feeding, cleaning, breeding etc. of mice is cheaper then buying frozen.

Your argument is void. If I had more then one snake I would have to buy more mice - correct. If you had/have more then one snake, you'd have to breed, house, feed, clean more mice - uping your costs also.

Regardless of that, your feelings are YOUR feelings. But telling people its CRUEL is not right IMHO because if none of us know for sure what gives the least pain, then you don't either. Plain and simple.

Yes my feelings, my opinion, agreed.

Hang on, I thought you did know because you have experience in killing mice?

Its nice and cute that you "put yourself in the animals place" but you aren't a rodent, you aren't a mouse and you have NO CLUE about their systems and what they do or do not go through using various killing methods. Putting yourself in the animals place is fine if its a human. But it has literally no logical basis when you are trying to assume how another animal feels. They simply do NOT posess our "feelings" not to say they don't feel pain but it really makes no sense to "be the mouse" I understand the "emotional" side of it for you, but personally I keep my human emotions out of snake keeping as in the end it leads to more problems that good.

I quote, 'none of us know for sure what gives the least pain'.

Another issue you side-stepped, you said the authorities have authorised the use of Co2 as a method of killing mice humanely. But have they authorised whacking them with a large instrument? Please ask them why they haven't then, I'd like to know their answer.

I suppose we should end this. You will continue to believe what ever you want is cruel, yet still keep the by-product in your freezer, while I will actually work in my experience with the methods of getting the snake food to my freezer. Good luck to you!

As someone else quite rightly pointed out, those who produce mice on a mass basis, its highly unconceivable that they go around whacking 100s-1000s of mice to kill them.

Cheers

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by Zoe
Not if you hit me hard enough! hehe.

Lol

Well while I practice, at first you might suffer a little bit

But I'll get used to it

[ReptiZone]

Man all this fuss over a rodent I can't belive it I can'belive a read every post either.

well first off I have worked in Pet Stores and they are the least humain places to kill a rodent remember it is what you dont see that lets you sleep at night.

I have done 2 hours straight of just wacking we call it the wacking shift.

nowa days I kill 12 med rats 6 fuzys and 24 hamsters in the first week of every month.
Go in the basment and use the wall.(concreat)

now you all say well what happens if I did that to you but in all realaty it would have to be joly green giant being the exacuter to match up to the sam thing.

any ways this is how I do it I takethe rodent by the back legs and SMACK against the wall as hard as I can they become K.O.

have you ever ben K.O well needles to say you could be K.O and I could tatoo my name on your chest and you would not feel it.

after the big BANG I grab the neck and back legs and pull one up and one down gentelnes is not the key here.

in other words while they are K.O you are destroying there spinal cord consequently snaping there neck.it taks less than 10 secounds to have a 100% dead mouse and .5 to get them K.O

If you dont belive me you can check for a puls...LOL

now why do I do it cause If i dont my animals don't eat if my animals don't eat it is caled neglect and that we can get sued for.


Ohhh ya and you think Co2 is so humain imagine this you are put in a dark room all of a suden so weird gas leaks in you start breathing it in a realise it is not good for you you hold your breath hoping it will pass but no You hold your breath so long and strugle to stay awake then you have no choise you need to breath some thing anything so you take a deap breath hoping for air but no it is just that awfule gass then you start gasping for air then you pas out and die.

Try holding your breth and plug your nose and re read my whole post that is the life of a mouse in the Co2 chamber.

Now tell me it is humain.

I would rather die when i was K.O at least I dont see it coming or have to watch the clock B4 I die.

you wana put your self in there shoes well there you start lasing them up.

[ChunkyMunky]

I used to use rat traps to kill them but now i use an old stun gun that my brother gave me. It works very well and its really quick.

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by chondro python
Man all this fuss over a rodent I can't belive it

That says it all really.

well first off I have worked in Pet

Me too - never had to kill mice or saw the killing of mice in the ways you describe.

now you all say well what happens if I did that to you but in all realaty it would have to be joly green giant being the exacuter to match up to the sam thing.

Not the point.

now why do I do it cause If i dont my animals don't eat if my animals don't eat it is caled neglect and that we can get sued for.

Wrong answer. Buy frozen.

Ohhh ya and you think Co2 is so humain imagine this you are put in a dark room all of a suden so weird gas leaks in you start breathing it in a realise it is not good for you you hold your breath hoping it will pass but no You hold your breath so long and strugle to stay awake then you have no choise you need to breath some thing anything so you take a deap breath hoping for air but no it is just that awfule gass then you start gasping for air then you pas out and die.

Evidently the gas wasn't strong enough, you got out!

Try holding your breth

I think perhaps you were when you wrote this if your spelling and grammar is anything to go by!

Have a good one

[Zoe]

About CO2... it doesn't act like a big purple gas. You won't really notice it, unless you get a headache and feel nausea, then you pass out and die. It's not like mustard gas... it probably doesn't feel bad aside maybe burning lungs and a headache.

Yeah, those rat traps aren't humane. I've never used a stun gun though?

Chris - I think what you arent getting, and what people are saying, is that FROZEN animals had to die somehow. And most petstores don't caringly put animals to sleep, they KILL them! Either by CO2 or by whacking/spinal cord severing, both of which do cause nada to small amounts of distress to the animal. Just saying "well, im not being cruel because they are already dead when i buy them. but you're being cruel because you kill them yourself" is hypocritical. The only way to go against that is get them from a place that kills them the way you think they should - not just ASSUME that because they are already dead that they were killed humanely.

Now, I totally understand why the idea of whacking a mouse against a table/wall would be very unnapealing. But why does it bother you so much; why do you think it is so cruel, if the animal is obviously dead on contact with the table/wall?

And I think Chondro's "Green Giant" comment was to the point. If YOU tried to kill me by smacking me against the wall, you probably would not succede and it would only cause me pain. But if a giant were (relative in size to mouse/human) to hit me against a wall, I would die on contact.

I think perhaps you were when you wrote this if your spelling and grammar is anything to go by!

hehehe... but dont forget that chondro is french (at least i believe it is your first language?) and needs to translate. Although I do agree that the lack of punctuaction and some grammar and spelling leave much to be desired

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Zoe: I see the point about killing and buying frozen being the same, but as someone else pointed out, if you go to a reputable place that mass breeds mice in their thousands, I hardly think they will go around snapping each ones neck or whacking them against a desk or wall.

The green giant point was not valid. Its all relative, of course I could not whack you against a wall. The point is, if I were the size of a giant and I did whack you against the wall - would it be painful? Any contact, or impact, is always going to hurt - even if its a split second before you die.

Chondro: My apologies. I did not realise you didn't speak much English.

All my valid points were side-stepped anyway, so its obvious this is just going to be a one way argument. Therefore this is my closing comment on this thread - no matter which direction it takes, I'll play no further part in it.

Chow!

lol what a comedy. I usually buy frozen but when I can't/don't I waste no time or energy worrying about how the prey will die it's food. I seriously doubt anyone's last steak came from a gassed cow, and when the round hits their skull there is plenty of kicking afterward. I grew up on a ranch killing and butchering all sorts of animals. Whether the mouse dies cleanly or not, my snakes don't care or at least don't complain to me if the mouse suffers. We're still killing/maiming each other, whats a mouse matter.

[spyderman]

I used to breed rats before I kept snakes, I could never kill one to feed my snakes.
I had to put one of the baby rats down because it was dying slowly, but that was to stop it from being in pain.
I buy my rats/mice frozen its probably a little dearer than breeding my own but I prefer not knowing how they died.

I think its a case of each to their own on this subject and also if frozen are easy to get hold of.

[tim88]

I breed my own mice also. I also use the same recipe for water as MoReptiles. It works very well and does help with the smell.

[KingJaff]

Cris, r u training to be a politician?
I mean, keep the spirit alive and all that (sever the qUEEN and ting)
but if u by frozen, u don't know how they deid, at least if you breed your own you can count on the quality of the animal and you know how it died (nicer then if you let my snake kill it) also if you cant handle the fact that mice have to be killed befor entering the snakes gut, then why do you own a snake?
Just to cheer every one up, I killed a bird with my bb gun the other day and i died a slow horrible death (by brick when my magazine ran out) and next time i do it, i'll be sure to think of u cris
lol

[marisa]

The bottom line is EVERYONE CANNOT BUY FROZEN!

You keep saying that's a solution to everyones problems but you cannot tell me you know exactly how every feeder you fed is killed.

Some of us CANNOT BUY FROZEN! period! I try to be nice to the mice but frankly if it means a mouse suffers for my snake so be it.

I REALLY hope you are a vegan, not vegetarian but a vegan. Because if not you eat meat, wear meat and help support something way crueler than mice killing. Just like I do by eating steak. And that pretty much makes your "everyone buy frozen, mice whacking is cruel" thing invalid and hypocritical.

Secondly mice breeding where *I* live is WAY cheaper than buying frozen for me. I am sorry its not for you. I save about 60-80 dollars a month breeding my own mice and have for three years now. Last year I bred about 500-1000 to stock up for the year. You do not even kill your own mice so I don't see how you have anything to say that can be backed up by PERSONAL experience. I am not trying to be rude, but a person who doesn't do their own breeding and killing telling me that my methods are cruel or they feel they are cruel, is laughable. You have no idea what goes on if you haven't done it before, you have no idea how long death takes to come from various methods except what you read on various papers all over the internet which are based on mouse killing for many reasons not just snake food.

Do you have ANY idea how many mice pet stores cram into C02 chambers? And you think my method is cruel?!?! LOL. Sure they go to sleep peacfully after being put in a box/tank/jar with a thousand or hundred other mice. And if you say they aren't then wow your pet store is unlike almsot every other in the world. And if you haven't SEEN them kill them with your own two eyes, then they will tell you they put on a funeral for each one to make you buy from them.

I didn't want to respond to this thread but frankly I find it offensive since I have been praticing my mouse husbandry and killing methods for three years now, at my home, before MY two eyes, not reading papers off the internet and regurgatating something someone else told me or what some pet shop claims. I really odn't want to offend you either but its like you telling me how to raise cornsnakes when I have four and you say have none.

Anyways good debate but we are at a point where we will have to agree to disagree.

Marisa

[steen]

Just thought I would post this info, as it may help some of you...I work in a research lab at a university that uses mice, rats, and gerbils for disease, feed, and breeding studies. A lot of research has been done to find the most humane way to "euthanize" these animals. They take into consideration the suffering of both the animal and the person doing the deed. They have found that the most humane way to kill a mouse is (by far) CO2. I can attest to this as I use it nearly every day. The most humane way to kill a rat, however, is technically decapitation. Since this is often more rough on the person (and not favorable for a feeder), the next best choice is cervical dislocation. The downfall to this is that, if a person is not properly trained to perform it, it can lead to a lot of pain and suffering for the animal. If it is not possible to have someone experienced show you this method, then CO2 for rats is the third most humane method. There is research to back this up...thought I should mention it. Hope it helps!

(Oh, I forgot to mention that while "whacking" as we're calling it isn't approved in the US, it is in many other countries. One of the animal technicians that I work with holds the mouse by the tail and swings it around, cracking its head on the end of a counter so that just the head hits. This *immediately* renders the mouse unconscious and often breaks its neck, but just to be sure, she also ensures that their necks are broken...she does this very quickly after the "whack" by placing a butter knife just behind the animals skull to hold the head down and giving the tail a *solid* jerk backward. This does the job EVERY time...as far as this method being painful, the animal's brain signals shut down so quickly that it doesn't have time to feel a thing. Sort of like a person in a bad car accident...when they wake up in the hospital they don't remember the collision...except that the mouse doesn't wake up of course....)

[Lisa]

Most pet stores don't have CO2 chambers, as a CO2 chamber would cost money. most either get the stuff prefrozen or stick them in the freezer themselves.
We try to kill our mice and rats with CO2 by getting some dry ice and putting it in warm water to make co2 gas. it is quick and painless. to see how quick and painless i put a mouse in our chamber that was prefilled with CO2 gas and watched how quick it acted. the mouse took 3 steps and fell over. It's basicly knock out gas, the rodent just gets sleepy, falls over and dies painlessly. Much easier on the mouse and much easier on my conscience. When we have to have a mouse and don't have dry ice we do whack them but it is emotionaly painful and the mice are terrified.