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Once again from the world of tortoises, but tortoises "generate heat" after eating too. However, it is my understanding that it is not the tortoise that creates the heat but the gut flora and fermentation process that accompanies digestion in hind-gut fermenters. Something similar could be true for the crocodilians, tegus, and rattlesnakes... they are not producing heat like exotherms but if their gut flora is given fuel then the microorganisms may generate heat or initiate chemical processes that create heat. It would also make sense that larger meals result in more heat, the microorganisms have more fuel to work with.
I'm afraid that I don't have a citation for the tortoise heat generation, it has been a couple years since I read about it.
Once again from the world of tortoises, but tortoises "generate heat" after eating too. However, it is my understanding that it is not the tortoise that creates the heat but the gut flora and fermentation process that accompanies digestion in hind-gut fermenters. Something similar could be true for the crocodilians, tegus, and rattlesnakes... they are not producing heat like exotherms but if their gut flora is given fuel then the microorganisms may generate heat or initiate chemical processes that create heat. It would also make sense that larger meals result in more heat, the microorganisms have more fuel to work with.
I'm afraid that I don't have a citation for the tortoise heat generation, it has been a couple years since I read about it.
I'm not a scientist but your explanation for the snakes and tortoises is probably sound. I was just pointing out that they get warmer, I think with the crocs and tegus if feeding was causing it the people studying them would have seen that and I believe the tegus were on their way right out of hibernation so wouldn't have any food in them.
The whole subject is really interesting in general especially when you get down to the science-y parts of it. I'm not really defending the no hotspot or ambient temperature thing anymore, I just think the discussion is really interesting especially when people start whipping scientific papers around.
I wish that these journal study sites weren't so dang expensive, that's where the juicy stuff that doesn't make it into random reptile books is hidden lol. Can we get a forum wide account?
Reptiles are just so interesting in general.
Even the definitions of Ectotherms and Endotherms both start off with "so-called cold blooded" and "so-called warm blooded" and I'm not trying to get into a semantics argument here... but ectotherms do rely on external temperatures and endotherms do maintain their own temperature independent of the environment. But even endotherms rely on external temperatures to a certain extent and maybe even ectotherms can't be 100% reliant on external temperatures otherwise any random cold spell during springtime could wipe them out.
Even a mammal has a similar adaptation to the woodfrog:
From Business Insider: The link is to the sourced study
Arctic ground squirrels are the only mammal on this list, and for good reason. Although many mammals can handle the cold with downy coats of fur, and by hibernating away the cold months, none shut down for the winter like the arctic ground squirrel. Like the other contenders, these squirrels can also super-cool their bodies below its freezing point, down to -2.9° C (26.78° F), a record amongst mammals.
But the real impressive adaptation happens in the squirrels' brains — they can sever neural connections, synapses, for hibernation, and reconnect them as soon as they wake (and warm) up, roughly once every two or three weeks during the winter.
Dendrites are the branchlike portion of neurons that receive chemical messages from other neurons, and hibernation causes them to wither. A Russian study in the early 1990s found that dissected brains of squirrels mid-hibernation contained far fewer dendrites than the brains from squirrels that were woken up and allowed to acclimate.
And only two hours after waking from its slumber, the synapse connections are restored, with even more dendrite branches than before. But 12 to 15 hours later, the brain begins culling the connections again as the squirrel returns to hibernation.
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Back in regards to turtles, here is a video that is regarding captive turtles kept outdoors at Garden State Tortoise and the keeper has seen his Blanding's turtles are active in the 20F range. Towards the end of the video the keeper Chris Leone mentions that the Gulf Coast box turtles winter outside in New Jersey as well. It's kind of interesting the statement Kenan makes in regards to the genetics being decided long ago in regards to the conditions that box turtles can endure. Now, does this mean that we can drop a snake neck turtle from South America in a pond in Ohio where I live and expect good things to happen? No, absolutely not but I wonder how the ideal captive temperatures of various species of aquatic turtles measure up to one another and then furthermore what the keepers of multiple species are actually doing in practice that is working for them and their turtles.
Since mention was made of ratlesnakes, I thought I'd throw this out there. Scientists were trying to figure out how a certain species of rattlesnake could survive in sub-freezing temperatures and digest it's food.
They basically force fed one of these rattlesnakes and studied it under conditions mimicking it's habitat. After a period of time, they had to take emergency action to save the snake.
Well, they missed ONE thing! In the wild, rattlesnakes invenomate their prey which initiates and assists the digestive processes. They injected prey with venom and repeated the experiment with much success.
Since mention was made of ratlesnakes, I thought I'd throw this out there. Scientists were trying to figure out how a certain species of rattlesnake could survive in sub-freezing temperatures and digest it's food.
They basically force fed one of these rattlesnakes and studied it under conditions mimicking it's habitat. After a period of time, they had to take emergency action to save the snake.
Well, they missed ONE thing! In the wild, rattlesnakes invenomate their prey which initiates and assists the digestive processes. They injected prey with venom and repeated the experiment with much success.
Do we know whether they are actively feeding in sub-freezing temperatures in the wild? I'm no rattlesnake expert but I think that's really cool. Not just a, can they but do they kind of question.
If we think about the places these snakes are found, in North America at least (or even just North American Snakes in general) in regards to when the last ice age ended, 11,700 years ago is what google craps out from livescience. Potentially with a catastrophic meteor related event 13,000 years ago that might have wiped out the mega mammals and some prehistoric civilizations.
My question is this. Could the snakes have been alive in some of the areas very close to the ice sheets during this time period? Were these adaptations with the rattlesnakes, the crocodiles etc, a way for them to survive the colder climates brought on by the ice age? How much can a population REALLY change, genetically speaking, in the span of only a few 10's of thousands of years? The only source I can find on the ice sheets is estimated maps and generalized estimates of what temperatures were doing back then. The average accepted number I keep seeing is that overall average temperatures were lower by 10 - 40 degrees depending on area and what climate cycle was happening at the time.
Here's an forum conversation with some guy who wrote a book on pre-historic Georgia. Apparently weather hobbyists are a thing as well, he even has articles on reptile and amphibian fossils from that era.
How far north did reptiles, snakes in particular live during this time? Particularly out west? I'm gonna try and do some more research and see what I come back with as I think it is certainly interesting in better understanding more in general.
This information came from a TV show I watched. The whole point of the research was to figure out how these rattlesnakes could survive in the climate they were in..
I wish I could offer more, but it's been a few years.
Not offering a hot spot makes no sense at all honestly I have no idea why that's even a thing? They need to thermo-regulate. That's like saying I spoke to a well respected doctor who has survived on heroin. Sorry I don't get it but to each there own.
Not offering a hot spot makes no sense at all honestly I have no idea why that's even a thing? They need to thermo-regulate. That's like saying I spoke to a well respected doctor who has survived on heroin. Sorry I don't get it but to each there own.
Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.
I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.
And what is your experience...how many years have you been keeping reptiles? How many snakes do you have...how many different species? How can you call someone "stupid" when you don't back up your statements with nothing other than that strange analogy about heroin and a doctor? You've heard the phrase, "comparing apples to oranges?" I don't see where an opoid abusing medical professional has anything to do with herpeculturists and reptile husbandry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louv44
Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.
I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.
And what is your experience...how many years have you been keeping reptiles? How many snakes do you have...how many different species? How can you call someone "stupid" when you don't back up your statements with nothing other than that strange analogy about heroin and a doctor? You've heard the phrase, "comparing apples to oranges?" I don't see where an opoid abusing medical professional has anything to do with herpeculturists and reptile husbandry.
Doctor House was a pretty good doctor despite being on pills all the time lol.
What about the idea of incubation temps being the "ideal" for a species? Would this make sense to anyone else? Just a thought that I figured I would randomly throw that thought into the hat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louv44
Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.
I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.
Lou...have you read the entire thread, including all of the evidence that this may not necessarily be a bad idea? Up until your post it's for the most part been very intriguing and thought provoking. From your comments, I am assuming that you most likely haven't...for example you mention lack of heat, but that isn't even remotely what is being presented here, nor is anyone outrightly saying or arguing that it's indeed correct. I'd suggest actually reading and processing the information and conversation presented here by the insightful and intelligent members we have before dismissing it and regarding it as stupid. I can tell you, flat out, there are multiple species (asian rats, some central american milks, geckos of new caledonia) that thrive at room temp, don't really need to thermoregulate (or when given the opportunity to do so they just don't do it), and some species can actually be harmed or perish when kept at warmer temps or given a hot spot that's too hot...so although I get where you're coming from...it's not entirely correct either and your statement really adds nothing but insult to the discussion.
Scubadiver - first I certainly wasn't calling anyone stupid I would never do that and if I came off that way I apologize to everyone and I certainly don't consider myself a top 10,000 expert on the subject. I was calling that specific idea stupid. I don't think you need a lot of experience to know that in the wild cold blooded animals use heat to thermo-regulate and wouldn't it be fair to say we should provide any animal with what it would have in the wild? To answer your question I started keeping snakes when I was 11 but was around them before that cause my older brothers always had a bunch. I bred carpet pythons from 1994 to 2001, then wasout of the hobby until my kids wanted some 5 years ago. I've owned rat snakes, Corns, Kings, Ball pythons ( of course ) Argentine Boas, Columbian boas, Dominican red mountains but my main animal like I said was carpets. Again all we need to know that cold blooded animals need to thermo-regulate is any introductory science book? That's not debatable they are in fact cold blooded. So the win of not allowing them to do that is what? I saved a little money on a heat mat and thermostat and I can tell people look they lived! I just feel it's our duty if we choose to keep any animal we provide them with what they need they are helpless it's the correct thing to do. Again I agree I could written a much better post and again I apologize that's something I need to work on. It's just one mans opinion that it's wrong and really don't make sense, like why do that? What's the victory?
By coincidence we were having the same debate on a Facebook group. The following is from Fran Baines.
For those that don't know of Fran she is a world leading scientist on reptile heating and lighting. Zoos around the world consult her and she has published hundreds of papers on the subject.
She is hunting out some papers from her library on the need for snakes to thermoregulate and as soon I have then I'll post a link.
If Fran says they need to thermoregulate I'll take her word over that over any number of breeders and hobbiests to be honest - she's done the research.
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All reptiles need to thermoregulate for optimum health; they need to be able to adjust their internal body temperature according to their current physiological need. This includes an increase in body temperature when digesting food, for example. And a night drop is important (along with darkness) to regulate circadian rhythms.
Ideally, you're looking to create a thermal gradient that's above the average preferred body temperature at one end of the vivarium, as a heat source, and cooler than the preferred body temperature at the other end, as a "heat sink" (technical term for cooling-off place)...
Unfortunately if you keep the whole environment at the same temperature, the reptile can't change its body temperature at all. This is chronic stress, and can lead to poor health and poor growth.
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This from Francis Cosqueiri - a herpetologist who's spent decades observing snakes.
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You may not know this but Fran is a world renowned vet whose advice is sought by zoos and institutions worldwide, that has published reams of peer reviewed papers, especially on the topic she is advising on - she doesn't give "opinions" she changes the way these animals are viewed with her work. The wise would do well to sit up, shut up and pay heed when she givrs advice.
Also, yes - keeping a reptile at one temperature is absolutely terrible advice, bordering on cruelty in my opinion, regardless of the "loads of people" that say otherwise. Simply because the preferred temperature (Tp) of these animals has been shown to vary depending on age, season, gender... In fact some of my own research was on preferred temperature in reptiles and I can even name cryptic species that have been separated due to their preference for different temperatures!
Providing a thermal gradient is ALWAYS to be recommended, even for hardy Royal Pythons, because that is how these animals thermoregulate. It is essentially the basic building block of ethical reptile care.
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As I say when Fran gives me the papers I'll post them up.
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0.1 B imperator, 1.0 M spilota harrisoni, 1.0 C hortulanus, 2.1 P reticulatus (Madu locality), 1.1 S amethystine, 1.1 L olivaceous, 1.0 C angulifer, 1.0 Z persicus, 0.1 P regius, 0.1 N natrix, 0.1 E climacophora, 1.0 P obsoletus, 0.1 L geluta nigrtia, 1.0 P catenifer sayi, 1.0 T lepidus
what??? 
Hybrid Mode
