Keeping snakes without a hotspot

[dannybgoode]

If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

And this right here is the million dollar question. On the basis we simply don't know I'd rather err on the side they vary their body temperature (and bear in mind we may be looking at only a fraction of a degree maybe more) I'll give mine the choice.

*If* there were robust research to show all this moving around from warm to for was to maintain a set temperature I may reconsider. The difficulty then would be does every snake have the same requirement and that I doubt very much - even across species from a similar location.

[TRD]

The only reason people don't give the right surface temperatures in captivity is because it's difficult and dangerous to provide such temps in a confined space. The space has to be quite a bit bigger than what is usually recommended on minimal size, and you need controllable ventilation and outside ambient temperature to keep temps inside to viv under control. It's far easier to give a lower temperature that they can use for a longer time instead of a true hotspot that they can use for 20 minutes. Captivity has it's limits in what can be reproduced in a practical sense.

[EL Ziggy]

Very informative thread. Lots of great points being made. Thanks for the lessons all!

[TRD]

Reptiles, or snakes in particular, also thermoregulate to control their digestion and conserve energy in the wild. I don't agree with the want/has to statement due to that, they 'choose to' is probably closer to reality.

It would be an interesting experiment to do, but you need a controlled environment and a medical study behind that so that long terms effects can be established. Going by anecdotal evidence because some people use this method, doesn't guarantee it is healthy for the animal. (most) Snakes can survive their entire live in sub optimal conditions, they are extremely hardy. Actually, most living organisms can.

I for one would rather go with scientific data on this subject before coming to any conclusion here. In the meantime I would continue to replicate their natural environment as close as possible.

[TRD]

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

• We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

• We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

• It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method

Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by TRD

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

• We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

• We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

• It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method

Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that

I encourage that kind of debate, I do not take offense to it at all so don't worry about that. I'll agree that it seemed crazy to me as well and I would continue to have the same reaction if I hadn't had the results I've had and if I hadn't seen the results of others. As I said before the only reason there isn't a surefire answer to this is that biologists don't give two craps about captive snake husbandry. All it would take to prove or disprove the theory would be to drop a temperature probe into a food item and actually measure the core body temperature of a snake throughout the week to figure out what's going on.

I would say to your first point, you're absolutely correct in that we aren't entirely sure about the exact processes. They have done the temperature probe thing with alligators back in 2003, a much "sexier" animal to study. Here is the abstract from that study:

Abstract:
Regulation of body temperature may increase fitness of animals by ensuring that biochemical and physiological processes proceed at an optimal rate. The validity of current methods of testing whether or not thermoregulation in reptiles occurs is often limited to very small species that have near zero heat capacity. The aim of this study was to develop a method that allows estimation of body temperature null distributions of large reptiles and to investigate seasonal thermoregulation in the American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis). Continuous body temperature records of wild alligators were obtained from implanted dataloggers in winter (n=7, mass range: 1.6-53.6 kg) and summer (n=7, mass range: 1.9-54.5 kg). Body temperature null distributions were calculated by randomising behavioural postures, thereby randomly altering relative animal surface areas exposed to different avenues of heat transfer. Core body temperatures were predicted by calculations of transient heat transfer by conduction and blood flow. Alligator body temperatures follow regular oscillations during the day. Occasionally, body temperature steadied during the day to fall within a relatively narrow range. Rather than indicating shuttling thermoregulation, however, this pattern could be predicted from random movements. Average daily body temperature increases with body mass in winter but not in summer. Daily amplitudes of body temperature decrease with increasing body mass in summer but not in winter. These patterns result from differential exposure to heat transfer mechanisms at different seasons. In summer, alligators are significantly cooler than predictions for a randomly moving animal, and the reverse is the case in winter. Theoretical predictions show, however, that alligators can be warmer in winter if they maximised their sun exposure. We concluded that alligators may not rely exclusively on regulation of body temperature but that they may also acclimatise biochemically to seasonally changing environmental conditions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12905121

What this study showed is that the core temperatures of the alligators fell within a narrow range. And the last sentence shows that alligators potentially do not entirely rely on external regulation of temperatures.

We know that snakes can do this as well, evidenced by various pythons who curl around their eggs which can increase the temperature with no external help. And also, and you can do this with a snake in a static ambient temperature with a temp gun if a snake is digesting a decent enough sized food item, the snake will actually get warmer because it's digesting that food item.

Does it perhaps lead us to the conclusion that maybe a snake's core temperature is more or less basically the same throughout the day, affected primarily by seemingly random movements? I'm not gonna say that it does, but it makes me think.

I've drawn the conclusion that snakes in the wild avoid the extremes of their native environments. Snakes in the wild shut down when exposed to constant highs, constant lows, very high humidity levels and very low humidity levels etc. Even snakes from more moderate climates such as the temperate North American species will change their behaviors to a more nocturnal, lifestyle when the temperatures get too hot.

I know there are people out there who constantly mist their tropical snakes, maintain very high humidity levels. With the lower temperatures this becomes unnecessary in order to maintain hydration levels because the snake isn't metabolizing water as fast. You get to essentially remove a variable that can cause problems. High humidity when combined with various temperatures can lead to scale rot, an over population of disease causing bacteria which lead to respiratory infections, all sorts of issues. Low humidity with high temperatures can cause dehydration issues etc.

For me the results have spoken for themselves.

To your last point and conclusion, what decides what is OK? We only have a few measurable factors as keepers in order to tell if a snake is in a good condition. Is a snake feeding, is it shedding properly, is it breeding, does it appear to be thriving, will it breed? That's essentially all we have. If someone hands you a snake that is raised with this method could you tell? I can tell if someone hands me a snake that has problems or is raised in sub-optimal conditions pretty easily, I imagine that you can too. I'm beginning to think that perhaps that the window of what people consider to considered optimal is a lot more narrow than what the snakes consider it to be.

There have been many, many studies conducted on wild reptiles. There have been precious few actual scientific studies done on captive reptiles and husbandry methods and the ones available are primarily in regards to disease and a few on UVB exposure. So when it comes to the research aspect of their care, I say there isn't much. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence based on the accounts of individual keepers, enough anecdotal evidence can be quite valuable and convincing. I find that people will only dismiss anecdotal evidence if it disagrees with what they already think. There isn't as much anecdotal evidence for this method, I believe because of the fierce backlash that is often received when it is discussed that people just kind of do their own thing and don't bother anyone about it. That said, I do thank you and others in this thread for not acting like children and just "screaming" the idea away as I've seen in the past.

Snake care over the hobby's brief history has evolved tremendously. Many care strategies that were once accepted as fact have been proven false, irrelevant or at worse dangerous. What I'm doing is unconventional I'll admit, but I feel as if my logic is sound and my results are my evidence for that.

Here are a few pictures of my snakes:

Dragon Armor Scales - Album on Imgur

Lucy dinner time and time outside.Â* - Album on Imgur

Finally able to get some pics out in the sun.Â* - Album on Imgur

[bigsnakegirl785]

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

[Doug 351]

Well, y'all can thank me now. If I hadn't stirred the pot, this would have died a very boring thread.

And I would like to thank all the qualified, articulate members who have responded. This thread should be very helpful to anyone who views it.

I still ain't skeered of my heat rock!!!!

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[Scubadiver59]

The same thing happens to me when I eat...would you like to feel my belly too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea7XIUuj7ag

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

[Scubadiver59]

Some light reading for you...just an abstract of a full paper, but interesting nonetheless:

"...We assessed heat production, at a constant environmental temperature, by taking infrared (IR) images of snakes during fasting and after being fed meals varying from 10% to 50% of their own body masses. Our results show clearly that digesting rattlesnakes have significantly increased body temperatures, even when precluded from adjusting their thermoregulatory behavior. The feeding-derived thermogenesis caused the surface body temperature of rattlesnakes to increase by 0.9-1.2 degrees C, a temperature change that will significantly affect digestive performance. The alterations in body temperature following feeding correlated closely with the temporal profile of changes in post-prandial metabolism. Moreover, the magnitude of the thermogenesis was greater for snakes fed large meals, as was the corresponding metabolic response. Since IR imaging only assesses surface temperatures, the magnitude of the thermogenesis and the changes in deep core temperature could be even more pronounced than is reported here."

The temperature increase may seem minuscule, but for a snake, it is probably significant, and it adds credence to some of the sites that state that snakes will forego heading for the hot hide for a time just after eating, but will eventually head there later.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

I mean, I posted the article on the crocodiles, I think we all know about the ball python thing when they are incubating their eggs.

Here is a study done on black and white Argentinian tegu.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ource-at-will/

"Surprise rise
The team studied the Argentinian black and white tegu (Salvator merianae), a 60-90-centimetre-long lizard that lives across much of South America.

As expected, for much of the year it cooled down when the sun set, reaching a low similar to that of its burrow between about 4 and 6am.

The surprise came when the lizards reached the reproductive time of the year, from September to December. During the cold early hours of the morning in that season, their breathing and heart rates rose and their temperatures reached as much as 10 °C above those of their burrows.

The discovery was so unexpected that the scientists took a further three years to confirm it, says Tattersall. “We would expect them to be as cold as they possibly could be at that time,” he says." - From the tegu article.


I would imagine that many other reptiles have similar adaptations that have simply just gone unstudied.

However, outside of the random one off instances that we've mentioned here in general they can’t fuel sustained muscular activity by aerobic means, but they have a fallback, as anaerobic metabolism usually can keep them going long enough to find the food item or shelter that they require. This is likely the extra umph they need to push themselves into hibernation chambers in the wild or out on cold days in the early spring as we see with garter snakes and others.

When a snake digests food there is extra energy and that generates heat on its own, now that's not to say that energy is enough to maintain proper body functions over a long period at extremely sub optimal temperatures. But it does lend itself to explaining why hotspots (in snakes) may not be necessary for proper digestion if kept at either the correct single ambient temperature or even with a gradient minus the hotspot, so say 75-85 with no little spot that's 90 degrees or whatever.

I do think, in particular the biochemical hypothesis with the alligator study I mentioned is interesting. A highly debated subject in regards to dinosaurs is whether they were endo or ectothermic. Crocodilians as we know are considered to be one of the most ancient of the living reptiles, having many relatives from back when dinosaurs still roamed the land. Perhaps dinosaurs had similar functions in regards to temperature, maybe some were fully endothermic and maybe those species evolved into birds and mammals while the ectothermic dinos evolved into the reptiles, amphibians we see today.

But, fish who all of those species evolved from, would endothermic fish have evolved into the warm blooded dinos and cold blooded fish into the cold blooded dinosaurs. Honestly, probably something entirely different, I'm not an archaeologist, I know more than probably most of the population about dinosaurs but considering the majority of the population doesn't care about dinosaurs that doesn't say much.

But in the tegu article there is a link to another surprising discovery in regards to fish generating their own heat.

Whole-body endothermy in a mesopelagic fish, the opah, Lampris guttatus | Science

The opah species of fish has a few adaptations that generate and spread heat throughout its body in order to dive into extremely cold waters to feed and such. Is this or the dinosaur thing related to our discussions, no, not really. But I think it's interesting.

But while we're on the topic of fish, in particular captive aquarium fish. These animals are ectotherms just like our reptiles. We know for a fact that fish thermoregulate in the wild to avoid too warm of water or too cool temperature water, yet in captivity we don't offer multiple temperature levels (at least intentionally). The aquarium hobby decided that in general 76-80 is the best area to be in and they've essentially stuck to that. This is because it's not possible or realistic to have any sort of real gradient in all but the largest aquariums which I imagine could be done with creatively placed heaters. We know that fish thermoregulate, we know they don't need to. So we don't make it an important aspect of that hobby.

I pose the question, if for whatever reason any of the keepers here were unable to provide thermoregulation opportunities, would they suddenly stop keeping snakes? Or would we as a hobby just adapt to the ambient temperature method because we know the snakes don't need it and others have found success with the method?

In my opinion offering snakes something they don't need is adding another variable that can cause problems. A snake NEEDS a reasonably sized tub, a certain temperature a water bowl and some hides.

I choose to provide natural decor, many hides, burrowing opportunity. I feel as if I'm doing that more for my enjoyment than anything the snake needs. I want my snakes to have more room to stretch out, move around and to have the decor to climb and display on. Does the snake NEED it? No. Does the snake WANT it? Eh, that's arguable. Do I want my snakes to have those opportunities? Yes. In regards to my snakes I don't want them to have access to hotspots or a huge gradient. This is because of the problems that I've found to be associated with those aspects of care, it's in the interest of my snake's health more than anything. I think that snakes in the wild chase the temperatures I'm offering my snakes making it natural without all of the extremes they are forced to face in the wild which in my mind is the benefit I offer my snakes from being in captivity.

Well that got wordy with a tangent here and there and I don't have a conclusion so I won't put one lol.

[bigsnakegirl785]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14718501