Warning about pyrethrin use

dinosaurdammit · 01-09-13, 01:55 PM

To those it may concern. Please be aware that I have first hand to the damage it can do. If you are using pyrethrin please take the time to look up SAFE dosages for snakes or other herps. Recently I had a boa that exibited IBD symptoms; however, I refused to believe it was IBD and my vet worked with me to determine that it was a pyrethrin toxcidity. It causes the animal to build it up and store in their urine, liver, and kidneys. Some symptoms may include:

Trouble breathing
Lethargic nature
Avoiding light
Unable to right itself
Drooling
Muscle spasums
Trouble passing feces/urine
Urine may be thick and green in color- think spinich baby food
Smelly saliva- it has an almost almond twangy smell to it
Scales drying out in patches
Skin rashes
Unable to slither effectavly
Unable to swallow effectavly
Labored breathing
Coarkscrewing of the head
Stargazing
Tremors both full body and head
Bloating/water retention
Upsidedown behavior
Unable to coil
Muscle weakness
Uncordination
Kidney problems
Liver problems
Muscle atrophy

If your snake or other herp is exposed to a high level of pyrethrin SEAK VET CARE ASAP. The quicker you flush out the toxins the quicker they return to some sort of normal.

A video of my affected boa [here]

Snakes may still eat but beware they can have issues swallowing so use MUCH smaller prey than normal, wet it and offer it on tongs. Be warned: they may strike but if not careful will miss the rat and slam into the viv. Try and feed in an open room to avoid further trauma.

My boa was boarded and their level of use was MUCH higher than prevent a mite- which is only a 0.50%. Their home maid mix was over 6%- it doesnt sound like a lot but just look at my snake. She may never fully recover but as long as she stays on fluids we are hopeful we can right her back to "normal". PLEASE be aware and read the directions and follow them to a T. Make sure their water bowls NEVER come in contact with the stuff. I had to learn from a former emploid member of the boarding shop that they dont even remove water bowls when they treat. This is probably why she was more effected because at the time she was in shed and sitting in the water dish a lot more.

If left untreated it can and WILL cause the death of your animal. I will keep updated and try and get lab results posted in here once I take her back friday. DONT TAKE CHANCES, its a great thing- pyrethrin- BUT IT IS TOXIC so be careful!

BarelyBreathing · 01-09-13, 02:03 PM

Can this be stickied?

Terranaut · 01-09-13, 02:12 PM

Funny I thought of that too in the other thread.

dinosaurdammit · 01-09-13, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Funny I thought of that too in the other thread.

After your PM i thought it was just best to make a general new thread with the warnings so that you didnt have to read the whole thread to figure out what happens with pyrethrin build up. I tried to orginize it best as I could and i dont think i left anything out though if i did maybe infern might edit the first post if i should remember anything new i left out

infernalis · 01-09-13, 02:18 PM

stickied it is..

dinosaurdammit · 01-09-13, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

stickied it is..

thank you. I feel that it should be made avaliable so people dont jump to ibd if they have been using a pyrethrin based de-mite-er. It does look like ibd but if you watch it, it just onsets with in a few days and rappidly progresses to near death by day 5 or 6. I hope people take my misfortune and use it as a learning tool.

Donnie · 01-09-13, 02:22 PM

Very informative post and worthy of a sticky

Will0W783 · 01-09-13, 03:25 PM

Very informative post. Thanks! I personally don't use Prevent-a-mite. I only treat for mites with the Nix method.

This is a lot safer than pyrethrin, but still shouldn't get in the water dishes. I've never had a snake have a bad reaction to Nix, and I Nix ALL incoming snakes during quarantine. Every single animal I buy gets a single treatment with Nix. If I see evidence of dead mites after that treatment, the snake gets a full course of the three recommended treatings. If no evidence of mites is found, the animal continues to be watched throughout quarantine but I don't treat further unless I find mites.

Terranaut · 01-09-13, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

After your PM i thought it was just best to make a general new thread with the warnings so that you didnt have to read the whole thread to figure out what happens with pyrethrin build up. I tried to orginize it best as I could and i dont think i left anything out though if i did maybe infern might edit the first post if i should remember anything new i left out

I think some of the posts in your other thread are very valuable and should be transfered to this one. This is a great sticky.

mykee · 01-09-13, 03:50 PM

Im confused? Is any of this really new information? We all knew that this stuff was dangerous and should only be used in the proper dosages.
Nothing new here.
I've used Nix for over 15 years on EVERY new acquisition that comes into my collection. NEVER have I misused it or dosed it incorrectly. This is sad, but if used properly, the active ingredient in BOTH PAM and Nix; permethrin is both safe and effective.
There is ZERO excuse for misusing these products, there are a million different websites and forums that tell you how to use it properly.

Gungirl · 01-09-13, 03:53 PM

Mykee.. they are 2 different things. They didn't spell it wrong, they are referring to something different.

Terranaut · 01-09-13, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gungirl

Mykee.. they are 2 different things. They didn't spell it wrong, they are referring to something different.

He means they both contain the same active ingredient.
This sticky wil reinforce the fact that you should follow the 2 methods above and that cheaping out , home brewing or overdosing can be disasterous to say the least. Following strict instructions with PAM is also a must. I still think Nix is the best all around but PAM is awesome on an enclosure if yoy can keep the snake out for a while.

shaunyboy · 01-09-13, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gungirl

Mykee.. they are 2 different things. They didn't spell it wrong, they are referring to something different.

My boa was boarded and their level of use was MUCH higher than prevent a mite- which is only a 0.50%. Their home maid mix was over 6%- it doesnt sound like a lot
^^^^^
pasted in from the op's quote

i thought the op was talking about permethrin,because they compaired it the the active ingrediant in provent a mite Kat,but you know me pal,i'm easy confused

0.50% and 6% is a huge amount of difference,in such an active chemical

re provent a mite
i personally have never come across anyone having a bad experience with it...

it's the ONLY mite product i use

cheers shaun

dinosaurdammit · 01-09-13, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykee

Im confused? Is any of this really new information? We all knew that this stuff was dangerous and should only be used in the proper dosages.

I am glad you have no issues but not everyone knows all about it or that it mimics IBD

Quote:

Nothing new here.

I am glad you know but saying "nothing new here"- yes, there is something new. Here is what to look for.

Quote:

I've used Nix for over 15 years on EVERY new acquisition that comes into my collection. NEVER have I misused it or dosed it incorrectly. This is sad, but if used properly, the active ingredient in BOTH PAM and Nix; permethrin is both safe and effective.

Yet again this is YOU and doesnt apply to everyone. I am YOU specifically- never had a problem. Awesome for you.

Quote:

There is ZERO excuse for misusing these products, there are a million different websites and forums that tell you how to use it properly.

Yet again you sound as this isnt helpful at all and almost comes across as condescending. The way it sounds to me is thus:

"I know all about it i cannot believe how stupid you are for not knowing as much as me"

shaunyboy · 01-09-13, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

I am glad you have no issues but not everyone knows all about it or that it mimics IBD

its not so much it mimics IBD...

more like a host of other things,it causes neurological issues...

re other things that will cause neuro issues..

infections
toxins
metabolic /defect/deficiency
trauma to the head or spine
overheating will also cause neuro issues to show

also IBD will cause neuro issues

cheers shaun