Reptile Shops Not properly housing Savannah's?

[MrBosc]

After doing some research, it really is starting to shock me how every reptile shop I have been to seems to house the Savannah's all the same. For example every reptile shop I have been to have had there Savannah's on wood chippings as substrate, UV Tube lights that are half hanging down that they can walk on and 3 - 4ft vivariums for fairly large (2ft - 3ft) Savannah's.

When I went to a reptile shop today I was really shocked to see this large Savannah just sitting in a 3ft vivarium even my smallish 1 foot Savannah is in a 4ft vivarium (I know that this isn't ideally the best sized vivarium, and I am going to upgrade fairly soon ), my questions are; does anyone else seem to see this housing regularly when they've been to reptile shops and two.. why is it that they can do this?

What's everyones input on this?

[nick654377]

the reptile shop by me has 2 black rough neck monitors one is 2 foot the other is a foot and a half in a 2x2x3t tank. they have uro and beards in a 40l about 12 of them and 3 4foot retics in a 40 long. yes it is common. why because they can fit more in there to sell more. its about money to them than the hobby.

[Aaron_S]

Before you judge you said ask them what you would need to keep the animal successfully.

As stated, it's the stores mentality to provide the most basic stuff, heat/food/enclosure and to provide the permanent home the information to keep the animal happy, healthy and thriving. Most stores are high traffic and the animal shouldn't sit for long anyway.

If they say that's how they should be kept then I'd run. Far away.

[infernalis]

After watching several display animals get sick and die, I quit looking.

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Before you judge you said ask them what you would need to keep the animal successfully.

As stated, it's the stores mentality to provide the most basic stuff, heat/food/enclosure and to provide the permanent home the information to keep the animal happy, healthy and thriving. Most stores are high traffic and the animal shouldn't sit for long anyway.

If they say that's how they should be kept then I'd run. Far away.

I agree with you to an extent, but in my opinion it is the shop that should be setting a good example to all of its customers by showing "this is how they should be kept", not "this is the just bearable conditions we keep them for the time being". And although the shop may use certain materials to reduce the cost, it would seem to me that purchasing more suitable materials wouldn't necessarily hit their pockets too hard because once you have a few vivariums with the good equipment you don't really have to change it frequently it's a long term wise investment for the reptile's health.

And also the one shop that I have been to said they had this one Bosc for months, and this was the one that had a 2ft+ Bosc in a 4ft vivarium.

If they said this is how you should keep them, I'd probably trip out and think "There really needs to be a legislation to house these reptiles" LOL.

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by infernalis

After watching several display animals get sick and die, I quit looking.

I haven't witnessed or come across any reptiles that have died. Although I really do find it shocking and annoying that they can be allowed to house these reptiles in these conditions. Regardless or not as to whether they are short term or long term, there should really be rules that are enforced to these particular shops to ensure they are kept in vivariums that provide good conditions. I've read your website and read the tragedy about the Gout, and I'm fairly certain every reptile shop I have come across wouldn't be able to tell me what humidity these Bosc's are kept in. In my opinion not enough is being enforced on these reptile shops :/

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by nick654377

the reptile shop by me has 2 black rough neck monitors one is 2 foot the other is a foot and a half in a 2x2x3t tank. they have uro and beards in a 40l about 12 of them and 3 4foot retics in a 40 long. yes it is common. why because they can fit more in there to sell more. its about money to them than the hobby.

I have to agree with you that it is true that all they seem interested in profit than the health and well-being of the animals. I'm just really confused as to why they can do this, I know the other fellow said in a post that this is almost likely conditions that have been met to house them for now. But in my opinion it doesn't make it right! if they can't afford the good equipment, then they should save up before they open a shop. And the likelihood of these Savannah's being put into similar conditions would probably be reduced, when I first got my Bosc I imitated what the shop kept the Bosc in, thankfully these forums have gave me an eye opener and I am able to provide my bosc with far better conditions and a much more clone like habitat. And I am proof that the shops influence customers into assuming they are providing the best conditions for the animals, although this clearly wasn't or is the case.

[Aaron_S]

I'm sorry but it's just not possible for that happen. I don't disagree with you but I'm just stating it's usually not financially viable for stores to do this.

I know of stores who have tried it your way. Each snake on it's own. In a really nice viv and such. They don't last long. It just costs too much to keep it like this. The catch is that anyone who KNOWS this is the 100% proper way of doing it don't buy from pet stores and buy from breeders so this person has a hard time selling as well.

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm sorry but it's just not possible for that happen. I don't disagree with you but I'm just stating it's usually not financially viable for stores to do this.

I know of stores who have tried it your way. Each snake on it's own. In a really nice viv and such. They don't last long. It just costs too much to keep it like this. The catch is that anyone who KNOWS this is the 100% proper way of doing it don't buy from pet stores and buy from breeders so this person has a hard time selling as well.

What I struggle to understand is though, they purchase a 3 or 4ft vivarium when at an extra cost they could just get a 6 or preferably 8ft vivarium (or home make one). However once they have this, they would only have to spend what they usually would on the 3 or 4ft vivarium, well the UV tube may be a few pounds more because of the additional length required. But in saying this you said it was hard to keep maintaining this set-up, what exactly is hard to keep up by the way?

My understanding is if they put a little bit more money into bigger vivariums at the start, then the rest of the equipment required would be no different than the equipment they would buy for the 3 or 4ft vivarium. Therefor the only additional one off cost required would be the bigger vivarium, the top soil and play sand substrate is pretty much £10 - £15 which only needs to be replaced every few months.

By the way I should add I really don't mean any of this in a funny way, sometimes when writing things on here it can seem as though people are writing things with attitude or sarcasm but I can assure you I'm not. I'm just curious to understand your opinions and knowledge

[Aaron_S]

I understand your thoughts and no worries on the sarcasm/attitude thing as I detect none.

I get what you're saying but what shop expects to keep adult savs or monitors? Those don't sell as well as babies. So a 4 foot would work just fine.

On top of that. Instead of an 8 foot enclosure they can fit two 4 foots and then put two different species in the same space. Thus generating more sales and higher traffic to move everything.

Like I said I don't disagree with you but this what I get and understand from them their viewpoint. Once many moons ago I worked in pet stores and we had complaints and these were the reasons. It was a VERY high traffic store as most animals didn't sit more than a week.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by MrBosc

I haven't witnessed or come across any reptiles that have died. Although I really do find it shocking and annoying that they can be allowed to house these reptiles in these conditions. Regardless or not as to whether they are short term or long term, there should really be rules that are enforced to these particular shops to ensure they are kept in vivariums that provide good conditions. I've read your website and read the tragedy about the Gout, and I'm fairly certain every reptile shop I have come across wouldn't be able to tell me what humidity these Bosc's are kept in. In my opinion not enough is being enforced on these reptile shops :/

Report the shop to the RSPCA and tell them your EXACT concerns, i got a local shop closed for badly housed tegus.

Also if they provided the necessary soil for the sav then the sav would burrow and then nobody could see it and the shop wouldnt sell it - sad but true

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I understand your thoughts and no worries on the sarcasm/attitude thing as I detect none.

I get what you're saying but what shop expects to keep adult savs or monitors? Those don't sell as well as babies. So a 4 foot would work just fine.

On top of that. Instead of an 8 foot enclosure they can fit two 4 foots and then put two different species in the same space. Thus generating more sales and higher traffic to move everything.

Like I said I don't disagree with you but this what I get and understand from them their viewpoint. Once many moons ago I worked in pet stores and we had complaints and these were the reasons. It was a VERY high traffic store as most animals didn't sit more than a week.

Everything Aaron says is right on target, These animals are on display for a short time.

Every breeding season I house sometimes hundreds of baby snakes in these tiny little sandwich size poly boxes (mini rubs) until I ship them out, But that does not mean I house my adult animals this way.

When working with volume, some space sacrifices must be made.

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Everything Aaron says is right on target, These animals are on display for a short time.

Every breeding season I house sometimes hundreds of baby snakes in these tiny little sandwich size poly boxes (mini rubs) until I ship them out, But that does not mean I house my adult animals this way.

When working with volume, some space sacrifices must be made.

From that perspective Infernalis I can completely understand, however there is one shop that I know of and he has had this Bosc for a long period of time. We are talking several months, this Bosc is similar to the size of your Bosc however he is in a 3 - 4ft vivarium on wood chippings substrate with a half hanging down UV tube (which is also fairly small in length compared to the vivarium). So with the length of time this Bosc has been in there it eliminates the justification for temporary housing as it has been there for over half a year.

But as I've wrote this I have reminded myself I have assumed the lizards I have seen probably haven't been there for that long, it's just one of the Savannah's I know of to have been kept there for a long time and it stuck in my head that all lizards are more than likely like this.

But on a negative vote I still think it gives off the wrong impressions to customers, I for example imitated the housing that my Savannah come from. The care sheet I got didn't state anything about humidity, better substrate's etc so for that reason if reptile shops aren't giving a very clear indication that the vivariums they are kept in are designed for temporary use then they would need to sort it out.

P.S I'm going to try get a tripod shot of my Savannah today, your shot was really good of your bosc's tripod =]

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I understand your thoughts and no worries on the sarcasm/attitude thing as I detect none.

I get what you're saying but what shop expects to keep adult savs or monitors? Those don't sell as well as babies. So a 4 foot would work just fine.

On top of that. Instead of an 8 foot enclosure they can fit two 4 foots and then put two different species in the same space. Thus generating more sales and higher traffic to move everything.

Like I said I don't disagree with you but this what I get and understand from them their viewpoint. Once many moons ago I worked in pet stores and we had complaints and these were the reasons. It was a VERY high traffic store as most animals didn't sit more than a week.

Taking into account that the shop is generating high traffic Aaron I can completly understand and it justifies fully what you are saying. However upon replying to Infernalis post I had realized that when I spoke to a reptile shop about this Savannah he had, he had told me he has had it for several months. Because of this (without thinking) I have assumed all lizards are being kept for a period of months in these conditions when in fact I bet it may have well been that it was just a one off that this Savannah was kept longer than usual.

And thanks for not taking my previous post as sarcastic or anything, when having a swap of opinions in writing it can easily be taken in a different way than it is meant too.

=]

[MrBosc]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Report the shop to the RSPCA and tell them your EXACT concerns, i got a local shop closed for badly housed tegus.

Also if they provided the necessary soil for the sav then the sav would burrow and then nobody could see it and the shop wouldnt sell it - sad but true

Well Done LankyRob, if they closed the shop down then I'm very sure they did it for all the right reasons. After reading dome more replies on this thread I have come to the conclusion that as long as these conditions are temporary, then it doesn't really matter. However as I stated on another post a bosc monitor that I actually enquired about on one occasion I was told this Bosc monitor was at that shop for several months, therefor I automatically from then on assumed all lizards are kept in shops for months.

On another note though, unless they specifically tell you in person or on a care sheet that the way that there Bosc monitor was kept was >Only< for temporary and additional measures need to be taken for permanent homes. When I got my Bosc I imitated the conditions that he was in before I got him from the shop, therefor if it wasn't for the helpful people on these forums I can be certain he would be in a dangerous low level of humidity.

Again well done for doing somethign about that shop