HYBRID'S how best to.....

[shaunyboy]

with all the HYBRID threads,popping up on here lately it got me thinking.....

what would give you a greater chance of successfully crossing,an EGG laying species x LIVE bearing species

would you be better crossing,an EGG laying MALE,with a LIVE bearing FEMALE

OR

would you be better crossing,a LIVE bearing MALE with an EGG laying FEMALE

i would love to hear your thoughts on the matter and how/why you reached your conclusions

also do you think genetically,one female would have a better chance,or an advantage,of conceiving over the other female ? (live bearing,versus,egg laying)

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR.....

DISCUSSING THE MORALITY OR THE ETHICS OF HYBRIDS

so if you do not like this thread or have nothing positive to add to the discussion,PLEASE refrain from reading or posting

cheers shaun

P.S.i have NO intention of producing hybrids,but i am very interested in their genetics

[Wildside]

I just don't think it's in the makeup to successfully cross an egg layer to a livebearer. I've heard stories of people who attempted this but never produced any viable offspring for whatever (*cough* bullshit) reason. I mean you'd be trying to line up two completely different reproductive systems. How could a body even begin sorting out what to do with that?

[Aaron_S]

I agree. Even though someone from another forum mentioned how livebearers just internally "incubate" the eggs and that each baby comes out in a tiny sac which is like a thinned out version of an egg shell.

I just don't see how a snake that gestates for 4 - 5 months can somehow operate to gestate less or longer.

To answer the question I suppose the only way for it to work would be egg laying male to livebearing female. The reason being that at the very least, if it was possible, it's easier to wait longer for gestation than to shorten it.

[Wildside]

The other reason I don't believe it's possible is, it doesn't happen in nature. I mean if any species were capable of this example of hybridization fish would do it, but they don't.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Wildside

I just don't think it's in the makeup to successfully cross an egg layer to a livebearer. I've heard stories of people who attempted this but never produced any viable offspring for whatever (*cough* bullshit) reason. I mean you'd be trying to line up two completely different reproductive systems. How could a body even begin sorting out what to do with that?

This is pretty much my thoughts on it. Physiologically-speaking, the reproductive systems are just a little too different for it to be possible.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I agree. Even though someone from another forum mentioned how livebearers just internally "incubate" the eggs and that each baby comes out in a tiny sac which is like a thinned out version of an egg shell.

I just don't see how a snake that gestates for 4 - 5 months can somehow operate to gestate less or longer.

I've heard that argument before, too...but still, another thing to consider is the genetic differences between the two species in question, not just the differences in plumbing. Obviously, Aspidites sp and Python regius are closely enough related to cross...but can the same be said for BCI and Python regius? Somewhere, on the genetic/DNA level, things will not match up, and while the male and female can lock-up til the cows come home, successful fertilization is unlikely, just as viable offspring.

A good example is African house snakes. I was a big Lamprophis enthusiast for a few years, and many people are not aware that there are a handful of species, not just 2-3. And contrary to popular rumors and misinformation, most of those species would not interbreed with each other, despite being in the same genus. Keepers again witnessed copulations, but no gravid females, and no hybrids. Now...they have since re-taxoned the entire complex and many were thrown into other genera, having been discovered to be more distantly related from each other than originally thought. To date, the only known house snake hybrid is a crossing of the striped (B. lineatus) and Cape (B. capensis)...and even among AHS hobbyists, there is suspicions that the two species may even be subspecies.

I just say all that to say the importance of the genetic relationship of the species in question, not just whether it is oviparous or viviparous. In that respect, I can probably entertain the possibility of a cornsnake crossing with a Asian beauty snake more than I could an anaconda with a python.

To answer the question I suppose the only way for it to work would be egg laying male to livebearing female. The reason being that at the very least, if it was possible, it's easier to wait longer for gestation than to shorten it.

Maybe. I think it would definitely depend on exactly which two species were being crossed.
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Another thing to note is that some species have randomly "switched!" One example was the Kenyan sand boa. I read an article in REPTILES magazine several yrs ago of a specimen that spontaneously reproduced by laying an egg, as opposed to live birth. I do not recall of the egg was viable, or successfully incubated or not. I do remember talking to a sand boa breeder and he mentioned he had heard of the phenomenon in at least one other sand boa species as well.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Wildside

The other reason I don't believe it's possible is, it doesn't happen in nature. I mean if any species were capable of this example of hybridization fish would do it, but they don't.

Meh...there's a LOT that happens in captivity that doesn't happen in nature. I mean, a carpet python will never mate with a ball python in nature.

But I kinda see what you meant.

[Wildside]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Meh...there's a LOT that happens in captivity that doesn't happen in nature. I mean, a carpet python will never mate with a ball python in nature.

But I kinda see what you meant.

True, maybe I should have said "in my experience" instead of "in nature". This thread just triggered me to think if I knew of any other species, mainly fish, that are capable of mating egg layer to livebearer.

[shaunyboy]

interesting stuff,thanks for the replies folks

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?

[MoreliAddict]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?

Emerald Tree Boa X Green Tree Python.

Why? Because they look alike .

[Will0W783]

You cannot cross a live-bearing species with an egg-laying one. The reproductive cycles are not compatible- you won't get viable offspring. There are also other differences between boas and pythons; while they are similar they have diverged sufficiently in evolution to make them sexually incompatible. If you tried, say to breed an egg-laying male to a live-birthing female, the babies would not carry to term. The embryos of egg-laying species are adapted to develop in an egg external from the female. The body temperatures and low-oxygen environment of the uterus would not allow them to develop properly. The opposite would also hold true- live birthing embryos would not develop properly in time for an egg to hatch. You'd get babies pipping with developmental abnormalities; if they even produced eggs. To my knowledge, no one has gotten viable eggs or even a pregnancy out of such a cross. Most times the animals will see each other as competition and not mates. It would be kind of like trying to breed a cat with a dog- both are mammals, but they've grown so far apart evolutionarily that they can't breed with each other. Same goes for pythons and colubrids...can't do it.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

To my knowledge, no one has gotten viable eggs or even a pregnancy out of such a cross.

That's the key!

Been a few obscure claims of gravid females (See here for some of that discussion: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gener...-thread-2.html )....but nothing substantial. Certainly no offspring.

Its funny when you think about it. Some of these claims, the person says, "yeah its possible"...but no offspring. Sorry folks, same goes for any other pairing (hybrid or otherwise); If no offspring was produced, then the breeding wasn't successful! It doesn't count!

Snakes can lock-up and copulate all they want, but unless you can prove even that fertilization occurred, you can say "its possible"

[marvelfreak]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?

Even though it not possible I think a Red Blood to a Yellow Anaconda would be very interesting. It would be cool to see what size, color, patterns,
head shape they would have. Plus what kind of behavior would exhibit. Would they be even more insecure and aggressive? Plus to study how powerful they would be. Could you imagine their crashing power or how hard they could hit?

[StudentoReptile]

I dunno...all I can think of when mixing a red colored snake with a green colored snake is that you're going to get a muddy brown colored snake. Yeah, maybe the pattern will be funky-looking...but mixing those colors together...meh.

I'd mix the red blood to a yellow anaconda instead, since yellow might flow better with those red hues and perhaps create some nice oranges.

[StudentoReptile]

Back to my original question, I think I might try mixing a Mexican burrowing python (Loxocemus bicolor) with perhaps a rosy boa or rubber boa.