Can you identify this guy ?

wyz · 07-26-04, 04:52 PM

Here's the story.

Bought this guy about a year ago.

Purchased as a Blue Nosybe Panther.

All along, I found that the blue wasn't coming out so I ocasionaly emailed pics to the breeder asking if there was a mistake when it was sold.

Breeder never said it was impossible, but it's something that never happend in the past.

Some friends tell me he's a cross and for sure not a pure blue. (breeder does breed more than 1 local of panthers)

Breeder tell me it might be because he's cold, might be the type of UVB I use, tells me he lookes stressed... etc...

It's starting to sound like BS to me.. Please tell me what you think.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
I bought a blue Nosybe female to go with him and if he's not a pure blue, my project is down the drain.

Here are the pics

WYZ

meow_mix450 · 07-26-04, 05:14 PM

Looks like bad news, What i think is that its a cross theres no way that can be a nosy be.

Meow

Collide · 07-26-04, 06:27 PM

Its quite possible he is nosey keep in mind not all chams from Nosy Be are blue I have seen some pics of wild Nosy's and they had some red in the face like your guy. So with out knowing for sure i think u do have a nosy just not a blue blue one. Im not an expert on determining locals though so we will see what others think thats my guess.

Brandy

dank7oo · 07-26-04, 06:56 PM

I would put money on the fact that is a cross. Prolly a nosyxambanja.

Jason

Chris_Anderson · 07-26-04, 07:08 PM

It looks like a cross to me as well. Here is a link to some photos of Ambanja and Nosy Be F. pardalis I photographed while i was there a couple years ago: http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/par...=/4d2b&.src=ph

Chris

HeatherRose · 07-26-04, 07:20 PM

I had a nosy be that began to turn red as well...as he aged, he became more and more red...has anyone ever heard of this colouration being synonomous with aging?

meow_mix450 · 07-26-04, 09:31 PM

the red is normal, mine has some red its jsut the other colours on him, but still looks like a great cham

Meow

panther_dude · 07-27-04, 09:01 AM

yes what scum did you buy that from that lied right to your face.
Man people in this biz seem to say anything to make a sale.
I think we need to come up with a breeding license for chameleons. So that we never have to worry about running into problemes like this. Sure its ok to cross breed once in a while but you got to let people know its a cross. Really ticks me off.

dank7oo · 07-27-04, 09:18 AM

A breeding license really would not do anything. It would not stop someone without one from breeding their chameleons and selling them honestly, and the same, it would not stop someone with a license from lying to the buyer.

This 'business' relys solely on trust. I for instance would never buy a baby panther chameleon from a pet shop (for the obvious reasons and) for the simple fact that I do not know whether or not their labeling of 'nosy be' is correct. Instead, I would go a reputable breeder, who people I trust swear by, or one I have been satisfied wih in the past.

Similarly, if the pet shop take superb care of their snakes, maybe I would not have a problem purchasing a rosy boa or ball python from them ... I know what I see is what I get.

Maybe the whole problem with panthers is a mixing of locals 50 years ago, just showing up now. Ex. A nosy be and a nosy be produce a nosy be. A nosy be and ambanja produce a nosyxambanja (50 50). The babies have babies which would be 75% nosy and 25% ambanja. The coloration patterns may be similar, giving the impression of a pure nosy be. Now, 50 years later, the offspring (generations later) is caught in the wild and because of the color patter, is labeled as a nosy be (even though it is still a small portion ambanja [assuming all offspring continued breeding with pure nosy be]). This baby makes it too a breeder, who again assumes the nosy be status. Now you have a situation where the ambanja gene may appear in the offspring, but is oblivious to the breeder, who sells as a nosy be. Then as an adult, that "nosy be" appears with strange colorations, not typical to nosy bes.

While this example could possiblely happen (but I assume never would because of dilution), I am just using it to show how perhaps it always isn't the breeders fault in crosses.

Jason

wyz · 07-27-04, 09:35 AM

I did get it from a very reputable breeder..

I'm just wondering what to do now..

This person lives far far away from my place.

Also I wouldn't want to trade it for a young blue, this guy is almost ready to breed...

I'm also wondering how many other crosses were sold... imagine, I got a male, so I'm lucky to see he's not a pure blue... but imagine the ones that got females from the same clutch...

They'll be bred with pure blues and the surprise will be there only when to babies start to show colors.. which might be too late, since they might be sold young..

Things like that, really hurt a long way.

I still beleive in the words of the breeder. It's either an unwanted copulation that occured on a not so pure female that got pregnant.

WYZ

What do you guys think I should do from here ?

Collide · 07-27-04, 01:22 PM

Its possible like u said that the mother was not a nosy this could be hard to find out unless u know the true source of her and or the breedign history.

I think that u should contact the breeder let them know about your cham, and at least they will know that that female is not nosey. or can at least be aware.

I got a male nosy ready for some action lol pm me if your interested in a little breeding project.

B

panther_dude · 07-27-04, 02:04 PM

yes but will a cross bred animal be able to breed so many times? I always thought that crossing and inbreeding would lead to major health issues. If this is that case would they be able to survive and have enough generations in 50 years. Also arent there problemes with captive breeding four or five generations down the line? So if this is true for a pure blood chameleon. Would a cross or inbred animal not have even more problemes down the line of generations, an example would be infertile offspring. So I geusse what I'm asking is could a blood line of a cross-bred animal really last that long?

meow_mix450 · 07-27-04, 02:51 PM

its really hard had to find out if there pure when young, cause they dont really show there true colours when there older, but thats what i think. But if you start breeding maybe you should find WC panthers, youll get new blood lines and your garenteed(sp) that youll get a pure nosy be. Im not sure if mines a pure nosy be but it seems like it.

Collide: Have you found out if yours is a pure or cross???

Can vets tell if its a pure or cross by taking some blood from the cham? or is that unlikly. What if they had a sample of a pure wild caught nosy be and captive bred can they tell that way?

Meow

Chris_Anderson · 07-27-04, 03:01 PM

Ferguson states in his book that "Hybrid panther chameleons produced by parents from different localities have proven to be reproductively inferior." That isn't to say these hybrids can't reproduce effectively, just that generally they tend to have lower reproductive conditions. That being said, I don't think any lines have remained in captivity over 20 years. I think wyz hit the problem right on with how far these crosses can get and how badly they can mess with the captive populations. As for a breeding license, its not very logical unfortunately. We created the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database ( www.chameleondatabase.com ) to try to minimize the impact of unintentional hybridization and inbreeding but unfortunately, the participation hasn't been quite what we were hoping for. Vets can't tell the difference either. There hasn't been any genetic studies on mapping the genetic differences in pardalis locals that would be needed to conduct such a test. Even if there had, it would be extremely expensive.

Chris

panther_dude · 07-29-04, 09:46 AM

well if there hasnt been any genetic studies then how can you go and tell me that panthers are locals and not sub-species. Do they not determine this through genetic studies.
Is it not possible that one of the forms of panther chameleons today was the original from madagascar that eventually spred out throught time and eventually ended up adapting to there different environments through things such as colouration and marking. If the original still exists it could have become extinct hundres of years ago. I find it hard to beleave that in the begining of panther history there were many different forms of the same animal. I geusse we can call upon darwins finches for an example.
So Chris how can you argue with me about locals and sub-species if the proper research hasn't been done.
It seems you really just want to argue with me and prove me wrong any chance you get.