2 litters?

[jaybox_reptiles]

Hi all as you proly no my mouse had babys about a week and a half ago but now another mouse has had her litterr mixed with the other one she had her babys right on top lol will that mess with any thing?

Jay
Box

[Syst3m]

Yea seperate them as soon as possible. The smaller litter will not be able to fight for food and will most likely die.

[Linds]

I would leave them be. It shouldn't be a problem. You will encounter problems when you start moving the colony around and having to reintroduce them. Mice are especially sensitive to this and chances of cannabalism increase, as well as fighting and halted or reduced reproduction. I run my mice 1.5 and have never experienced any problems with babies being properly fed.

[Syst3m]

I don't know how thats supposed to work, everything I've read says that if litters are a week apart they shouldn't be kept together. I know that when colonies start breeding they get into good cycles and things work out better but when you have just 2 mice producing litters its a different story.

Keep an eye on their stomachs if they are full then they are getting fed. If not then they are probably going to die. If they don't nurse with in 6-12 hours they usually never do. They are going to have to fight with babys that are the equivilant to almost a year old in human years for food so if they do feed its not going to be alot, and not as often as they should for growing mice. If you had 5 nursing mothers in the cage it might be different.

What I did in this situation to ensure that most of the colony survived was to move the newborns to a seperate nest in the same box and let the mothers nurse them, Sometimes I would remove the older babys and let them warm at about 100f under a lamp and some cloth while the mothers nursed the newborns. I would do this 2-3 times a day for about 3 days until the babys became more mobile and better able to fend for food.

What kind of colony are you running right now? How many females to a male?

[Yness]

What does it take to start breeding mice (or rats would be better for me)? What sort of supplies would i need and how do you avoid becoming attached to them?

[Syst3m]

LOL.

Well first you need cages, for rats I used 55quart tall rubbermaids or sterilites. You need water bottles (I used 2 per cage for rats.) good food is a MUST. I buy Mazuri rodent chow at my local pet supplies plus store. It cost me 12.5 US dollars for 25 lbs. Not only is it the best thing to feed your rats the vitamins passed to your snakes is a bonus. I bought Hardware cloth and cut about a 1x1 foot hole in the top and fasioned the hardware cloth to the top of the cage. Its very important that you use shaved aspen for your litter. Cedar and pine are toxic to snakes and rodents alike Although they may not affect your rodents in the long term the damage to kidneys and liver will kill them early and it will also POSSIBLY poison your snakes. They will carry it in their fur and when your snakes eat the rats they will ingest it.

Other then that You don't need much. 1.2 for rats is probably the best way to go. Maybe 1.3 that is if your not looking to breed a ton of rats. Mice can go 1.8 but 1.5 is optimal. Rats will bear a litter about every 30 days after they begin to breed. The first litter will be born in about 21-24 days and about 30 days there after. Don't remove the males. There is a WHOLE lot more out there to breeding rats and mice please do yourself a favor. Use google to search "rat breeding" and do a LOT of reading before you choose to breed rats. Its a lot more time consuming then keeping snakes. You need to be sure that its right for you.

As far as not getting attached to them. Well thats not so easy. Even more so when it comes to dispatching of the breeding females that have served you well for the past year.

[Linds]

I've had anywhere between 2-7 females in a colony and never experienced any problems that you speak of. Both mice and rats. Mice are incredibly sensitive to be shuffled around, and in my experience (I"m sure others will agree), they take a while to start breeding again and get all sorts of other issues as well. They aren't like rats. Its best to just leave em in place IMHO.

Originally posted by Syst3m
There is a WHOLE lot more out there to breeding rats and mice please do yourself a favor. Use google to search "rat breeding" and do a LOT of reading before you choose to breed rats.

Good idea. Very important however, to keep in mind that most of these sites are towards breeding pet rats, which take a very different approach than breeding feeders, and often have a drastically different outlook.

Originally posted by Yness
What does it take to start breeding mice (or rats would be better for me)? What sort of supplies would i need and how do you avoid becoming attached to them?

If you don't have to breed mice and can do rats, go for that. Mice are awful filthy little stinkers. Don't ever play with any of your feeders. I still get attached to most breeders (yes I have a few retired breeders as pets now ), even though I do not spend anymore time than I need to with them. The babies are too cute as well, looking little wee puppies and all. Ya just off em fast and don't think about. They are food, not friends. Don't start thinking of how cute that little guy is when he's in the pillowcase about to meet his fate If you are breeding rodents to save money, do not get your supplies from pet stores. You will end up spending far more than you would be buy continuing to buy the feeders. Also, it may not be economical if you are only feeding a few mouths. On the plus side, it gives you complete quality control. I purchase shavings from the local co-op (a 3.5 cubic foot compressed bag) for $4, and I just feed them low quality dog food ($15/18kg... can get cheaper but the cheaper brand is too small and falls through the hardware cloth in my racks). Make sure the dog food contains no red dyes (but the cheap kinds are usually too cheap for even that..lol). I used to use Mazuri but found better results with the dog food. Despite the fact that the food values are pretty well identical. I house mine in either rubbermaids or in a rack system.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/504/22themeatfarm.jpg">

[Syst3m]

Originally posted by Linds
I've had anywhere between 2-7 females in a colony and never experienced any problems that you speak of. Both mice and rats. Mice are incredibly sensitive to be shuffled around, and in my experience (I"m sure others will agree), they take a while to start breeding again and get all sorts of other issues as well. They aren't like rats. Its best to just leave em in place IMHO.

This is probably where our difference of opinion comes into play.
I treated all of my rats and mice like pets until the day I killed them. Both my rats and mice were comfortable with me handling them and their babys at any time. In his case I assumed that since he only had a few mice breeding that he was paying more attention to them then one might when line breeding.

As far as treating them like pets and killing them, I don't get attached to them so its not a big deal to me. Some people will have a problem with that.

As far as resources go for reading, I think its still a great idea to read the fancy rat breeding pages as well as the feeder breeding pages. When I get a chance I will link to some of the better ones I know.

Linds setup looked a lot like mine did when I bred them. Like She said if you are only feeding a few mouths its not really worth it.

Rats are optimal, mice stink and are nasty.

EDUCATE yourself long before you start breeding rats and mice to feed your snakes. Its not just cut and dry. It is a lot of work that can pay off if your feeding 10-20 + snakes. But its a lot of waste if your just feeding 2. The only good that comes out of it is the quality of mice/rats you breed is usually alot greater then what your feeding your snakes from the usual pet store.

[jaybox_reptiles]

well all my females are preggo thats 5 preggo females and all of them have been nursing so i think it will be fine

Jay
Box

[Linds]

Originally posted by Syst3m
This is probably where our difference of opinion comes into play.
I treated all of my rats and mice like pets until the day I killed them. Both my rats and mice were comfortable with me handling them and their babys at any time. In his case I assumed that since he only had a few mice breeding that he was paying more attention to them then one might when line breeding.

The stresses that moving a colony around are caused by are not people. It is from the colony of mice constantly changing. So regardless of how well socialized these animals are to people, the stresses of having an everchanging colony will still be present, thus the elevated chances of dysfunction in the colony.

Eep. How did you manage to kill any after treating them like pets???

[Syst3m]

Originally posted by Linds
The stresses that moving a colony around are caused by are not people. It is from the colony of mice constantly changing. So regardless of how well socialized these animals are to people, the stresses of having an everchanging colony will still be present, thus the elevated chances of dysfunction in the colony.

Eep. How did you manage to kill any after treating them like pets???

Well first when I suggested moving them I just meant to another spot in the cage. I probably should have clarified that. None of my litters ever cared if I examined the babies, moved them around or seperated part of the litter for a while. I read on a few places that distinguising nest can help the smaller litter survive. Maybe I spent to much time reading the sites for people who breed them for show and not for food.

As far as killing them, I still viewed them as cattle, no matter how good I treated them.

[Syst3m]

Originally posted by jaybox_reptiles
well all my females are preggo thats 5 preggo females and all of them have been nursing so i think it will be fine

Jay
Box

If their bellys are full then leave them be.

[jaybox_reptiles]

do not play with you mice is exactly right lol i am ashamed to say that i have become extremly atached to my breeders i just love my little furry frinds lol

Jay
Box

PS. I have a secret to keeping mice from stinking first you put cypris mulch in the bottom of the cage and the yuou put you cedar or pine chips on top or that is how i do it any ways lol

thx for all the help

[Syst3m]

Originally posted by jaybox_reptiles
do not play with you mice is exactly right lol i am ashamed to say that i have become extremly atached to my breeders i just love my little furry frinds lol

Jay
Box

PS. I have a secret to keeping mice from stinking first you put cypris mulch in the bottom of the cage and the yuou put you cedar or pine chips on top or that is how i do it any ways lol

thx for all the help

You realize Cedar and Pine are toxic to your snake, your feeders are going to carry the cedar/pine toxins in their blood and fur.
I've never heard of a snake dying from it, but snakes that have sensitive livers like GTP could be at serious risk from that.

[Classic]

I use and know many that use pine for their rodents.
Syst3M: I think you may be a little over causious about the pine shavings or you have alot of money to burn. Aspen is very expensive, to expensive for rodents if you keep alot of snakes. There is no proof that rodent feeders on pine can be harmful to your reptiles. I use pine and know of no one else using something different. Cedar on the other hand is more toxic and may be bad for rodents but there has been no studies to even show this.

Mice are very easy to breed with 1.6 or 1.7 or more depending on the size of your enclosure. They do stink if you don't clean them regularly. There is no problem with having 2-3 or 4 clutches in one pile. The mothers will share the nursing responsibilities. I have not encountered a problem.
Rats do take alot of time and i agree that is worth it even if you have 1 or 2 snakes. A 1.2 or 1.3 colony will keep you with enough feeders and prevent you from paying the pet store prices. One colony of rats is not that hard to handle though and they don't smell very much unless you neglect them.

Linds: Is that 3 rats in a 10 gallon?