Syringe Feeding - Getting Veiled's Mouth Open

[J-Man]

Hi,

Some of you might know about me force feeding my roughly 3 mo. old male veiled smahes bananas with a syringe... I was succesfull in doing so the first time by making him mad and so he hissed at me and then I squirted some of the mashed bananas in and he started to enjoy it.

Well today I tried and he wasn't as excited about it. I couldn't get him to open his mouth (nothing was pissing him off, which kind of scared me because I heard male veileds were supposed to have an attitude)

I had to end up holding his casque and pulling the skin on his neck to open his mouth... this didn't SEEM painful, just annoying.

Can anybody please tell me if this is harmful to the cham and also, are there any ways to get him to open his mouth for feeding? Any help is very much appreciated!

[Zoe]

Hi,
I've had luck hand-watering a rescue by just letting water drops drip down the crack of her mouth... eventually she opened her mouth to lick it off, and now drinks well from a syringe.

Also, I suggest you ad some mashed wax/silk worms to the bananas... it'll ad some protein And if you mix in some water it'll help hydrate him and make the stuff moe liquidy.

Zoe

[Trace]

Morning J-Man!

I do a lot of rescue work with chameleons and I've done enough force feeding to last me a lifetime! It doesn't get any easier either! The way you are doing it is fine, you aren't really going to hurt him, just, as you say, annoy him more than anything. What I do is place my fingers over their nostrils and generally they will open their mouths immediately. You don't need to pinch the top of their jaw doing this, just cover the nostrils. Another trick is to touch the top of their heads above the eyes and sometimes they will open up right away. I will try both of those tricks first before resorting to pulling at their dewlaps, as I find they are less painful in a way. Remember patience is the key when dealing with a non-eating chameleon. Sometimes I've had to walk away for 20 minutes and let the little buggers calm down and then try again.

As for the bananas... they are very high in phosphorous which isn't good for chameleons. For some of the VERY sick chameleons that are dropped here I use this "bug juice" for force feeding:

Crushed or blended insects

Add only enough of the below ingredients to liquefy the crushed insects enough to draw into a syringe:

Ensure Plus
Pedialyte
Raw egg yolk

Refrigerate remaining bug juice. Discard if not used within two days.

It's really disgusting to make, but it's nutritionally complete for rehabilitating sickly chameleons. I also have a big bucket of Emeraid Nutri-Support that I use as well. It is only available through your veterinarian (at least in Canada anyways) and is long-term nutritional powdered food for reptiles.

Hopefully your little guy will come around. Has he opened his eyes yet? Keep me posted on his progress.

Cheers!

Trace

[J-Man]

Thanks again for your help.

I didn't realize bananas would be bad for him... though he's not sick at all, I'm just feeding him like that since he can't feed himself.

If I don't have the ingredients for that bug juice, is it ok to just use any of the ingredients? Also, how exactly do you make it? put a bunch of crickets in a bowl with ensure plus, pedalyte and egg yolk and smash it up with a spoon? or a blender? And should I use dusted/gut loaded crickets?

He opens his eyes occasionally (usually when I'm feeding him... I don't know if that's because he's scared and wants to see who's around or what).

I really appreciate all this help, I know that when (hopefully not "if") he makes it, it'll be because of you and these forums.

[Trace]

Hey Hey!

I didn't realize bananas would be bad for him... though he's not sick at all, I'm just feeding him like that since he can't feed himself.

It's a good idea to feed him like you are doing, as he can't quite see his food yet! Besides, any food you can get into his tummy will make him stronger for you.

If I don't have the ingredients for that bug juice, is it ok to just use any of the ingredients? Also, how exactly do you make it? put a bunch of crickets in a bowl with ensure plus, pedialyte and egg yolk and smash it up with a spoon? or a blender? And should I use dusted/gut loaded crickets?

As for the ingredients... Ensure Plus is one of those breakfast drink thingies. It may be called something else in the US? It's chock full of vitamins and minerals which is good. A can of it costs about a dollar or two here. The pedialyte is a baby drink which has got electrolytes in it, which is good for keeping the chameleon hydrated. Unfortunately this one is expensive... like $10.00 or so for a jar. You can buy both at your local drug store or grocery store. Try to find all of the ingredients if you can.

What I do is put the bugs in a bowl and squish them up with the back of a spoon! GROSS! I find waxworms, silkies, freshly shed mealies etc to be a bit easier to liquify. I also don't make a big pile at a time because it doesn't really keep all that long. I start with maybe 24 or 36 bugs or so. Once I have a good paste going I add the rest of the ingredients a little at a time, like a teaspoon of each until I get the right consistency to be able to draw it into a syringe. I don't dust the bugs before I make this recipe, but all of my bugs are gutloaded here to begin with.

Hope this helps! Have you talked with a vet yet?

Cheers!

Trace

[J-Man]

Ok, I thought that's what ensure was. I'll try that. Though I'm not having much luck getting him to eat... I just can't get his mouth open! I tried covering his nostrils and he just sits there for a few seconds then he pulls back and pushes me off of him. I also tried holding his casque and pulling on his neck like I did before but it feels so much like I'm going to rip it and it scares me. I think if I could just find a consistent way to get him to eat with the syringe everything would be ok.

I haven't found a vet who deals with chameleons, or herps much at all for that matter. I'm still looking though.

I'm beginning to get very worried. He's not active inside his cage much at all. I don't see him moving around the cage very often and I hear stories about other people's chams (though they're adult chams) that are always climbing all around and they have stories about things they do and it doesn't seem Duke is like that.

I think I'm just gonna have to keep trying to feed him like this. His eyes were a little open today, which is a good sign so this might be working.

I'm really sorry about the long posts... as you can probably tell I'm a little frantic. Thanks for helping me out with this.

[Trace]

Hey again!

Don't worry about the long posts, the more information you can supply me and the other cham gurus around here with the better!

Click here for a listing of reptile veterinarians in PA. Hopefully some are close to you, and certainly it is worth a few phone calls around to ask a few questions. I'm not saying I don't want to help, but it is hard to give good advice without seeing your little woggley eyed man.

I'm happy to hear the food is helping somewhat! I know I get slow and sluggish when I haven't eaten. Keep the force feeding up... it's hard... but be persistent! Sometimes you do need to use a bit of strength to open their mouths. Do you have a friend that could help you out? One to hold Duke while you put the food in?

As for active chameleons, I've got some that are content to sit in one spot all day while others are on the move from the minute they get up in the morning until the minute they go to bed at night. If I could only have that much energy! LOL!

Good luck... and keep me informed of his progress.

Trace

[J-Man]

Good afternoon, Trace

Yeah, I have my girlfriend put the food in with the syringe while I hold his mouth open. I would have no problem using strength with him except that it feels like I'm going to rip his skin? Do you think it's possible that I could do that?

Thanks for the vets... one of them was located in pittsburgh which is where I live.

I will definitely keep you posted on his progress.

[Trace]

Good good! I'm glad to hear you've got help! I'm by myself most of the time when I've got to force feed a reptile and a third arm would really come in handy sometimes.

I suppose if you pulled hard enough, you could rip his skin, anything is possible right? In all the times I've ever had to pull on a dewlap I've never broken or torn the skin. You may find he gets a slight bruise at that area, but it will go away within a day or two. Don't give it a hard yank, but a strong, slow pull. Don't be afraid... you can do it!

I have dug out some of my chameleon medical books for you, and most of the information I'm getting is that he my have an eye infection. In most of those cases the eyes are sunken and the lids are fused shut which doesn't jive with your info, so I suspect it's something else in your case. I'll still keep digging up info for you.

I'm rootin' for Duke! I'd love to see a pic when you've got a chance!

Trace

[J-Man]

Hey Trace!

Sorry I'm so late... I was kind of dragged to my grandma's... long story.

Thank you so much for all your help... you really don't have to go looking stuff up for me though.

Yeah that doesn't really seem to be the problem because he does open his eyes sometimes.

I thought that might be a bruise I couldn't tell. I definitely don't yank on his dewlap. Like you said, a strong, slow pull... I mean he'd probably sooner open his mouth then let his skin get ripped.

Again, sorry for the late post and thanks for your help!

Jeremy

[Trace]

Hey Hey

Honestly I've been wondering what's up with little Duke all weekend but I understand that family obligations do come first though.

Again, I don't mind to answer your questions and I'll try to help in anyway I can. Try and borrow your brothers digicam and post some pics for me, I wanna see your handsome woggley eyed man.

Still rootin' for Duke!

Trace

[J-Man]

Hi Trace

Problem with the cam is he doesn't have the cord for it so he can't transfer the pics that I already took onto the computer.

I have another question. About how much should I feed him per sitting? I'm having trouble with this whole thing so I'm lucky to get one big mouth full (truly a mouth FULL though). Should I just feed him as much as I can and hope he starts taking to it better?

Thanks,

Jeremy

[Trace]

Hi Jeremy!

Problem with the cam is he doesn't have the cord for it so he can't transfer the pics that I already took onto the computer.

DANG!

Should I just feed him as much as I can and hope he starts taking to it better?

He probably won't "take" to it any better unfortunately. Chameleons are probably even more stubborn than I am! TeeHee! Feed him as much as he will take at one sitting, there is no point in stressing him out further. What I do with some of the rescues I get is force feed them 3 or 4 times a day. I find this to be a little less traumatic for them than one big session. I find I can only get maybe 1cc (1ml) into them at a go.

Hope this helps! Go Duke!

Trace

[J-Man]

Hey Trace!

Sorry for not replying sooner... for some reason I thought I was waiting for a reply from you and so I just kept checking my e-mail to see if I had an e-mail notice of a new post.

I re-arranged Duke's cage last night... it's not so centralized now... I took out the tall palm in the middle and I just have a bunch of little "chameleon highways" sorta... he seems to like it a lot more. He's more active and today I saw him with his eye open looking around.

I fed him a lot yesterday, 3 sittings and 4 mouth fulls. By the end he seemed to realize that when I pull on his dewlap it means food because it was much easier the last couple times. I also watered him a lot yesterday... something like 2 full 32 oz. spray bottles were emptied on him... and another 1 1/2 today. So I'm thinking the watering and the feeding helped him a lot.

Still waiting for the cord for his cam! Can't wait to show you him and his home

Jeremy

[Trace]

Hi Jeremy!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Well it does sound like he's getting better! YAY! Active and looking around is good and I hope he continues to improve for you. Unfortunately you may have to keep up the force feedings for a bit longer until he is feeling 100%. That "bug juice" recipe is real fun to make eh! Ewwwww.

Maybe in a couple of days, throw a few crickets into his cage, I'd be curious to see if he eats on his own. If he doesn't eat them, take the crix out of the enclosure as you don't want the bugs to annoy him.

Has he pooped for you yet? I'd be curious to see if those are normal or not too.

Keep up the good work! :thumbsup: This is great news! I'm still stumped as to what his problem is, but as long as he's getting stronger, that's all that matters!

GO DUKE!

Trace