Ethics of snake food...

mistersprinkles · 04-29-15, 08:19 PM

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

Jim Smith · 04-29-15, 08:32 PM

Animals are raised for food all over the planet. Have you ever been to a chicken ranch or a pig farm? I have no problems feeding F/T rodents to my snakes. I must admit though that I really don't like the idea of feeding live lizards or other live snakes as food, so I don't keep the species of snakes that only prefer those food items. I suggest that you reconsider keeping your new carpet python if it bothers you to feed rodents. Perhaps one of the egg eating snakes or water snakes where you can feed pieces of fish. Just a couple of possibilities...

RAD House · 04-29-15, 08:38 PM

Nope how could I as I myself am a predator? I think it is good that people realize that something must parish for other things to live. It makes you respect the thing that perished more, not just a steak but a living being. The caste system of higher and lower animal groups is ridiculous and not supported by science. The only thing that matters in nature is what lives and what dies. In my mind some of the more ancient groups may even be considered as higher as they have survived for so long through so much. Mammals not so much, and humans especially not as we continually destroy our own home.

**Minkness** · 04-29-15, 08:45 PM

Well....first of all...why are you on a snake forum if you feel unethical? (Not being cheeky, genuinely curious)

Secondly, I don't really have any ethical qualms of feeding my animals. I'm certainly not a vegetarian, so why expect my animals to be (or give up the animals I love). Dogs and cats eat meat products that means other animals are slaughtered and processed just for their consumption. I'm sure if we could get 'snake kibble' easily taken by our snakes, that would happen alot more. The food chain has never bothered me in the least. Now...I do respect pet rodents and their owners, and have personally owned pet rats and mice that would break my heart should I have fed them to a snake. (I didn't own snakes at the time but you get the idea). I personally cannot kill an animal on purpose however. So, either f/t or live...but I cannot just grab a rat/mouse, bash it in the head, break it's neck, gas it, or any other method of euthinizing it. I of course feed f/t for safety purposes, but also because in the end, many mass pricing feeder companies humanely gas the feeder animals so I know that they don't exactly suffer. It's the circle of life.

on another note....I don't really see the food chain as one animal being 'higher' than the other. Just because an animal can bond or feel basic emotions or be trained to do tricks doesn't make them better, just different. Think about a lion and a gazelle. Both are mammals, both can show trust, affection, and be trained....but the lion will eat the gazelle and it will never be the other way around. Does that make the lion better? Nope, just higher on the food chain. Same with reptiles and rodents. Regardless of emotions and such, the rodent is usually eaten by tue reptile, which technically makes the reptile higher on the food chain (except those rare, stupid times someone leaves live prey in with a domesticated snake and the next thing you know the mouse is enjoying some live meat of the other kind)

This is all just my opinion of course.

Derek1 · 04-29-15, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

As my 6yr old would say. You're cray cray

How is a mouse/rat a higher animal than a snake? Both are equal on the lower food chain scale.

SSSSnakes · 04-29-15, 09:34 PM

This world survives by a food chain. I'm high on the food chain, my snakes are lower on the chain and rodents are even lower. I'm fine with that. Unless you are a a true vegan and use no dead animal products, don't talk ethics.

**lady_bug87** · 04-29-15, 10:17 PM

I think its an interesting topic. When I feed my animals I don't see rats as well, rats. they're food.

My ethical problem is when people feed live for fun. I saw a horrible video once where someone gave a live mouse to a pacman frog and the frog tore it apart while it screamed

eminart · 04-30-15, 05:50 AM

Dying in a CO2 chamber is a better way to die than almost any death a rat would experience in nature. Everything eats.

In modern day, people have the opportunity to pretend we are above nature. Technology and industry allow us to be so distant from our food and the food of other animals, that we have an unrealistic disconnect.

pet_snake_78 · 04-30-15, 07:21 AM

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

eminart · 04-30-15, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Yay! Someone who truly gets it! I posted a very similar thing on facebook last week. It didn't go over well with many of the intended audience.

pet_snake_78 · 04-30-15, 08:21 AM

Most people don't want to deal with reality, but we cannot let them become so comfortable that they can make any statement they want and everyone will just support the fantasy land they live in so they can sleep easier at night.

My family has a ranch so I know what happens, "free range", "grass fed", or not. They are better than most ranchers though and let as much wildlife share the land as possible. An "organic" farmer near them kills as many timber rattlers as he can and not so long ago was trying to get help locating any foraging and denning areas to expediate the killing. Now this is a species that is disappearing across much of its range and now faces a deadly fungal infection that may wipe them out even in remote areas. I am not anti-ranching and even a bad rancher has more wildlife on his land than a good corn farmer, but any way you dice it the growing billions of people are doing horrific things to wildlife and animals way, way, way worse than feeding a mouse... even a live one.

reptiledude987 · 04-30-15, 08:26 AM

Not in the least. Whats more cruel for a mouse to be gassed with CO2 or the snake to starve to death? Its not like we feed mice because its fun or cool. Its their natural prey item. tens of thousands of mice or rats are eaten by wild snakes every day in the wild. I really see no difference. Also as stated unless youre truely a vegan we as humans are really no different.

This whole post has me questioning your motivations to be on the forum all togeter. If you cant justify feeding your pet snake and no longer have any why are you an active member on a snake forum?

**Aaron_S** · 04-30-15, 08:48 AM

I don't have the same ethics when it comes to feeding rats to my snakes. They have to eat and survive themselves.

I do get your standpoint and it's cool with me. I wouldn't say you're right or wrong here, it's just the way you are and how you feel. Nothing wrong with that.

Enjoy your lizards!

Albert Clark · 04-30-15, 09:06 AM

Mice and rats have been wreaking havoc on populations throughout history. They spread diseases and destroy crops. They have been a scourge and a danger to infants and children in inner cities for eons. Oh, they do have cute faces and the ability to have higher brain functions but look at the motis operandi of rodents. They live in filth and are always creating enviornments that turn into cesspools and breeding grounds for disease. Reptiles have been keeping rodent populations in check for years and that is a good thing. As well, the kingsnakes deserve credit for the way they keep rattlesnake populations down. Rattlesnakes bite a lot of people adult and child alike. They cause death and disability across the world. What would this world be like without reptiles in general? I shudder to think......

prairiepanda · 04-30-15, 10:11 AM

I do not have an ethical problem with feeding f/t rats to my snakes, but I am concerned about getting my rats from ethical sources. I go for sources that treat the animals with respect and euthanize them humanely. I ask for pictures of the facility and ask about their euthanization process(they pretty much all use CO2, but they set it up in different ways and have different standards about certainty of death and length of time suffocating prior to death). I don't want to feed my snakes rats that have been kept in unhealthy conditions with 30 rats in a shoebox where it's impossible to tell whether some have died.

I have the same concern about the meat I eat. I buy locally produced meat so that I know they didn't come from a "meat factory" type farm. If I have any suspicions about a farmer, I can easily drive out and take a look at their farm. I'm satisfied that my meat is ethically sourced, as is that of my snakes.

To be honest, the one that bothers me the most is the cat food. I really have no idea how those meat animals are treated. Unfortunately I don't really have a choice because my cat requires a prescription diet. Otherwise I would be just as picky with her food as with everyone else's. But I'm not going to disown my cat because of questionable meat sources. I know even ethical farms cause other animals to suffer via habitat destruction, so I can't really escape that anyway.