Study shows snake's ability to learn.

**Pareeeee** · 06-25-13, 07:41 AM

I know it's an old article, but an interesting read. I really wish more universities did intelligence trials on snakes. I think I would read each one.

What do you guys think of the article?
Snakes Show Surprising Capacity for Learning
(and please, PLEASE don't change the subject to the age-old "do snakes have emotions" argument, this topic is about snake memory/learning capability)

pdomensis · 06-25-13, 07:48 AM

Cool. I hadn't realized they were so visual. I want to see a picture of the snakes with their tinfoil hats!

bcr229 · 06-25-13, 08:09 AM

This would also explain why hook training is effective with snakes that have a strong prey drive. They quickly learn that hook = no food, so they chill out.

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 09:37 AM

I am not convinced...

Valvaren · 06-25-13, 11:33 AM

I had to clean one of my boas who had defecated WHILE food was dethawing. After 10 mins of fending him off with a hide from trying to eat me I finally decided I had to get him out whether I got bit or not. As soon as I got my hand on him to scoop him up he was out of feeding mode. Head went down and his whole posture changed and he came out fine. I don't think people give them enough credit. He went on to eat fine for me after I put him back.

Now I wouldn't try it with a full grown boa (hes 2 years old) but I do know that he knows the difference between when its food and when its coming out of this enclosure time. Which can be tied with what Bcr229 said about hooking.

Zoo Nanny · 06-25-13, 11:40 AM

Pareeeee This site is not related to snake research but you may find the articles interesting. They have a number of different studies going on with assorted lizards and amphibians.

Hot off the press! ?Learning outdoors: male lizards show flexible spatial learning under semi-natural conditions? The Lizard Lab

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoo Nanny

Pareeeee This site is not related to snake research but you may find the articles interesting. They have a number of different studies going on with assorted lizards and amphibians.

Hot off the press! ?Learning outdoors: male lizards show flexible spatial learning under semi-natural conditions? The Lizard Lab

Lizards are a whole different ball game, but I'll read it anyway.

Starbuck · 06-25-13, 03:23 PM

Amadeus, I am interested to know why you 'are not convinced'. Certainly this article is only suggesting that snakes can respond to certain environmental cues repeatedly (at statistically greater than chance levels), but what is your evidence refuting this suggestion?
how would you define learning in a non-vocal animal, without the means to solve a tactile puzzle (like a varanid or octopus could)?

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 04:06 PM

In my opinion for something to "learn" it must be sentient being.

Example, it has been well documented that primates can learn and solve problems but we know that they have higher brain function and their own kind of emotion, but a snake is known to have limited cognitive capabilities and it is illogical to assume that they can ''learn" as we think of it but rather develop a means to continue living.

Tracy33 · 06-25-13, 05:18 PM

well I think they can and do learn . I mean I toilet trained my eguanas , it took a little time , but they learned . I sense my python can be quite knowing of things , we don't give them enough credit . When he was younger he used to snake around the room , again and again the same way , he would always snake over us whilst we sat on the sofa and just sit with us for a bit . He also seems to know the door , he will go up it until you open it for him . If I allow anyone to handle him , he so tries to get back on me . He allows me to pet him , yes even on top of the head , and under his chin . When he was very small , I would carry him in my pocket , so he would really get used to me , of course he is 9ft now . I have always been hands on with my reptiles . My tortoise , well I could go on about him to .

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy33

well I think they can and do learn . I mean I toilet trained my eguanas , it took a little time , but they learned . I sense my python can be quite knowing of things , we don't give them enough credit . When he was younger he used to snake around the room , again and again the same way , he would always snake over us whilst we sat on the sofa and just sit with us for a bit . He also seems to know the door , he will go up it until you open it for him . If I allow anyone to handle him , he so tries to get back on me . He allows me to pet him , yes even on top of the head , and under his chin . When he was very small , I would carry him in my pocket , so he would really get used to me , of course he is 9ft now . I have always been hands on with my reptiles . My tortoise , well I could go on about him to .

Thank you for telling us that you have more body heat than others.

Starbuck · 06-25-13, 06:17 PM

i think it is unfair of you to compare primate's learning capabilities to those of snakes. Clearly, we are talking about very different criteria in these cases.
How would you compare a primate (such as a chimp or bonobo) to an ant?
Both require being part of a larger group. Both communicate (albeit in different ways, chemical and tactile vs. vocal and visual) to overcome a task, whether it is 'hey look at this food resource i found over here!' or 'you're not part of my group/go away' or 'how do we overcome this temporary obstacle (such as a flood, fire, winter etc)'.

How would you argue that an animal is 'sentient', if it recognizes the self? To my knowledge, only higher primates, dolphins, SOME elephants (roughly half fail the self recgnition test), and maybe some parrots can recognize their image as their own. Dogs can not, rats can not, yet both of these species are very intelligent, and i believe we can say they can 'learn'.

One of the things to point out among all of the above mentioned taxa is that the more 'social' and animal is, the easier it is to classify it as smart. those animals which tend to be solitary among the above taxa are less likely to be ascribed as intelligent (sperm whales vs. bottlenose for example). Perhaps we simply fail (as social humans) at quantifying the intelligence of a non-social SNAKE.
It is also difficult to work a snake's brain to complete our trials; as what do we have that a snake really wants? It certainly isnt craving attention, we can't use food because it could skew the data due to olfaction, etc etc. In the study mentioned in the OP, they used a negative stimuli (bright lights, open arena) and reward was simply a dark, tight, hide. The problem here is creating a trial that works with the snakes main senses, olfaction/chemosensory and visual (as mentioned in the OP's article), i.e. using their language to present a problem that they have to overcome.

**Pareeeee** · 06-25-13, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amadeus

In my opinion for something to "learn" it must be sentient being.

Example, it has been well documented that primates can learn and solve problems but we know that they have higher brain function and their own kind of emotion, but a snake is known to have limited cognitive capabilities and it is illogical to assume that they can ''learn" as we think of it but rather develop a means to continue living.

Dogs learn, rats learn, cats learn, ravens learn, dolphins learn, none of which are "sentient" beings.

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starbuck

i think it is unfair of you to compare primate's learning capabilities to those of snakes. Clearly, we are talking about very different criteria in these cases.
How would you compare a primate (such as a chimp or bonobo) to an ant?
Both require being part of a larger group. Both communicate (albeit in different ways, chemical and tactile vs. vocal and visual) to overcome a task, whether it is 'hey look at this food resource i found over here!' or 'you're not part of my group/go away' or 'how do we overcome this temporary obstacle (such as a flood, fire, winter etc)'.

How would you argue that an animal is 'sentient', if it recognizes the self? To my knowledge, only higher primates, dolphins, SOME elephants (roughly half fail the self recgnition test), and maybe some parrots can recognize their image as their own. Dogs can not, rats can not, yet both of these species are very intelligent, and i believe we can say they can 'learn'.

One of the things to point out among all of the above mentioned taxa is that the more 'social' and animal is, the easier it is to classify it as smart. those animals which tend to be solitary among the above taxa are less likely to be ascribed as intelligent (sperm whales vs. bottlenose for example). Perhaps we simply fail (as social humans) at quantifying the intelligence of a non-social SNAKE.
It is also difficult to work a snake's brain to complete our trials; as what do we have that a snake really wants? It certainly isnt craving attention, we can't use food because it could skew the data due to olfaction, etc etc. In the study mentioned in the OP, they used a negative stimuli (bright lights, open arena) and reward was simply a dark, tight, hide. The problem here is creating a trial that works with the snakes main senses, olfaction/chemosensory and visual (as mentioned in the OP's article), i.e. using their language to present a problem that they have to overcome.

It would be impossible to compare a single ant to a primate but the group similar to our brain is intelligent.

Amadeus · 06-25-13, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pareeeee

Dogs learn, rats learn, cats learn, ravens learn, dolphins learn, none of which are "sentient" beings.

You didn't get it....