ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[formica]

I am becoming more attached to the idea of a sealed box of some kind, instead of a large soil burrowing area; currently designing my final savs final enclosure, sav's like dead tree stumps to live in when given the oppertunity in the wild, if the conditions are right inside, so the idea to create a hide, inside a sealed box is quite appealing for a few reasons. a reasonable length tunnel connecting the main outdoor space with the hide, so it feels secure, and protectable, by the Sav. lots of substrate and very careful control of humidity and tempretures, plus the ability for me to get inside the burrow without too much disruption to its enviroment, should the need arise, seems to me like a good idea.

My idea so far:

size - not decided, how big do they like it at full size? perhaps I should build in a way to gradually increase its size, if it prefers something snug fitting

So as a start, a large thick black plastic, possibly water tank of size TBC...

on the bottom 6inches of clay aggregate (balls that hold moisture), filled with water approx 0.5-1inch above the balls, and maintained at the same level via either a gravity pump, or manually. this water may also be heated via an aquarium tank heater to provide the required temps and humidty in the burrow, if required. then covered with a metal grill so he cant dig into aggregate and get to the water heater (its glass, def dont want him chomping on that!).

on top of that, foot of soil, with the bottom 0.5-1inch in the water below, to absorb moisture, emulating water table in wild, and bringing warmth from below into the burrow if the heater is needed, and then another 6 inches of sphagnum moss on top of that for even more humidity and for it to nose around in or move about and make the space more comfortable.

Humidity and Temperature sensors inside so things can be adjusted as needed.

The idea behind a prebuilt hide as apposed to the other options (like a huge soil filled burrow) is about access and cleaning, in the wild a monitors burrow will be kept clean by the crustaceans that live alongside it, aswell as the fact that in the wild although Humdity levels are high, air movement is also high, so things dont stagnate in the same way they can in a tank, producing molds and fungi which might not be good.

so I would like to for eg be able to change the moss every once in a while, and make sure theres no nasty molds growing due to the low air movement and high temp/humidity. Also means i dont have to dig it out if I'm concerned about his health for any reason.

So whats peoples thoughts, besides the removing of natural behaviour of burrowing, which has been covered many times before of course! If I choose this route, I will provide oppertunities for digging, for eg and area to dig up the occasional juice fat beetle grub or the odd snake egg nest (fertilized quail eggs not snake eggs)

will this solution present any other issues anyone can forsee? I certainly dont intend on opening his home up more than once every few months to inspect and clean, if that.

[infernalis]

I never thought I would see anyone more obsessed with over thinking things than myself.

Personally, My observations line up with those of several other people whom I trust...

Savannah Monitors are excavators by trade. The tunnel network inside my enclosure is a dynamic structure, those lizards are always digging here and there, every once in a while a new hole will open up and almost as quickly it will be sealed over so well it's almost impossible to tell it was ever there.

I just don't honestly think there is anything on earth that could be better for them than a big old fashion pile of dirt.

Here is my logic on the subject:

It has been said more than once that Savannah Monitors in the wild are very difficult to spot and document during all but the breeding season and hatching season. (Source Daniel Bennett & others)

This is apparent by the utter lack of photographs and footage unless trackers dug up a burrow. I have been scouring the web looking for anything, and have found one "tourist" who got some photos of one animal, another "tourist" who filmed a Bosc in a tree, and Daniel Bennett's photos, that's it.. no others yet.

So where are these millions of lizards living in the wild?? down in the ground, that's where.

Savannah Monitors are not the most graceful swimmers, climbers or runners. In fact those areas seem to be something they are rather clumsy at.

However, they can dig with the power of a backhoe, the speed of a drill and the grace of a landscaper.

This tells me that the most likely exercise they get is digging and excavating.

Another reason why I feel the humidity of the soil is important, and constant nonfluctuating environmental parameters are important too.

Think about this, even the coldest parts of the world have a frost line, the depth where freezing ends and stable temperatures begin.

This also applies with heat, at a certain depth, the ground temperature will be extremely stable, meaning that a wildfire can blow right on by overhead, and barely raise the burrow temperature at all.

I would love nothing more than to confirm that by going to Africa and measuring burrow depths of 100 burrows and compare the data. I am willing to bet a certain degree of consistency throughout regions.

Other data I would collect:

soil PH readings, Burrow temps, burrow humidity, soil nitrogen content & natural nesting preferences.

[formica]

haha :P yes i think allot - but i would rather spend this time checking all my facts and peoples experiences, and get the build right first time round, rather than have to start again, or modify - The issue of having to dig up the burrow in an 'emergancy' or whatever is a major issue for me, as is the condition of the burrow underground, which the monitor doesnt have control over

PH is something I hadnt considered, a quick check seems to suggest much of Ghanas soil is on the acid side, this would support some of the plants I know that come from the region, will find out more.

Nitrogen content is another interesting point, esp in terms of molds and fungi that might grow in the nest - which again leads onto other organisms in the soil which may stabilise things in the wild, but destabilize in captivity

Burrow temps and Humidity seems to have been covered in most threads, ie 90%+ humidity, min of 22C - this part at least, is easy to deal with, with the setup above, aswell as the traditional free-range burrow

I agree on the point of digging providing exercise, I do plan on giving him plenty to do, including digging up 'egg nests' and oversized beetle grub treats in shallower soil areas either way, and enough space to chase insects around at a good speed. - hmm need to find out more about this, coz in all fairness, even an 8x4x4 soil area isnt a huge amount of earth to shift over the life time of a monitor? in the wild, how many burrows do they make, or do they just make one and hope another bigger monitor doesnt steal it? or maybe they make a new one every year, or every few...? or never

Natural nesting preferences seem to vary a bit, from reports I've read around the web, they are opportunistic in the wild, taking over burrows of other animals, aswell as dead trees, under rocks near streams/rivers and other places they can attain their required sleeping enviroment, aswell as the burrows they dig for themselves - discovered that savanna monitor meat is a staple part of diet around west africa because they can easily be caught during rainy season

digging them up for tourists pisses me right off - espcially as some of the vids i've seen on youtube are blatantly doing it during dry season, when it needs to conserve energy and moisture, not be waved about in the sun and then have to find a new burrow, no matter how good diggers they are, they are going to loose allot of water and energy digging thru rock hard dry season soil!

Could the lack of tourist/wild images, be down to the fact that tourists dont generally go on holiday in the wet seasons, when the monitors are active? not many scientists are going to want to spend their time in the mosquito infested wet season either, unless sav's are off some particular interest to science, which i dont think they are; shame, esp with the apparent surge in interest by hobbyist keepers, and the amazingly bad care hatchlings seem to get from allot of people!

[Pirarucu]

Why only one foot? While you could get by with a foot if you have a male, if you have a female you will probably want to give her more options to bury her eggs.
It's worth noting that in the wild, DB observed that their average burrow depth was about a foot down. However, when you consider that the average Sav in the wild is a mere two feet long, and females are sexually mature at less than eleven inches long. (Also according to DB.) In comparison, Savs in captivity are giant. Three or four foot specimens are common, some males have even topped four feet. So, you can begin to see why the idea of at least two feet of substrate is usually suggested.
Wayne is right about the lack of available pictures or videos of wild Savannah Monitors, Daniel Bennett's website alone probably houses half of the pictures and videos we have..

Here are some others I have come across, in all my searching: Four photos, of two Savs, one of which appears to be somewhat dehydrated.

[franks]

My personal observations line up with wayne's. These guys make their own hides. I just built a new enclosure for my lizard and stocked it with so many really cool hides and burrows. I propped Up rocks, logs, tree stumps, you name it, and started burrows under them to encourage him. 3 days later, all of my hides and burrows were closed up, and he made his own right in the middle of the enclosure.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Why only one foot? While you could get by with a foot if you have a male, if you have a female you will probably want to give her more options to bury her eggs.
It's worth noting that in the wild, DB observed that their average burrow depth was about a foot down. However, when you consider that the average Sav in the wild is a mere two feet long, and females are sexually mature at less than eleven inches long. (Also according to DB.) In comparison, Savs in captivity are giant. Three or four foot specimens are common, some males have even topped four feet. So, you can begin to see why the idea of at least two feet of substrate is usually suggested.
Wayne is right about the lack of available pictures or videos of wild Savannah Monitors, Daniel Bennett's website alone probably houses half of the pictures and videos we have..

Here are some others I have come across, in all my searching: Four photos, of two Savs, one of which appears to be somewhat dehydrated.
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RE 1ft of soil, the soil is not really for digging around in, its just a way to bring up moisture into the box from the 'water table' below, which would then have a suitable amount of space for it to sleep on top of the soil replicating the inside of a burrow, at the right temp and humidity - and a tunnel leading into the area, to provide the illusion that he is entering an underground burrow - monitors being well known for burrow stealing i dont think this is too much of an issue

awsome pics btw, thanks!

and interesting info, I understood the size diffrence between captive and wild specimins, I have no interest in raising a monster tbh, just to give it a healthy and fulfulling life, and I do have some concerns over the idea of 365 days of rainy season level feeding all its life


i'm not suprised they are dehydrated in those pics if its dry season or rains only just starting, or drought, hell to many reasons why it could be dehydrated lol any indication of the time of year they where taken?

[franks]

Originally Posted by formica

]

RE 1ft of soil, the soil is not really for digging around in, its just a way to bring up moisture into the box from the 'water table' below, which would then have a suitable amount of space for it to sleep on top of the soil replicating the inside of a burrow, at the right temp and humidity - and a tunnel leading into the area, to provide the illusion that he is entering an underground burrow - monitors being well known for burrow stealing i dont think this is too much of an issue

awsome pics btw, thanks!

and interesting info, I understood the size diffrence between captive and wild specimins, I have no interest in raising a monster tbh, just to give it a healthy and fulfulling life, and I do have some concerns over the idea of 365 days of rainy season level feeding all its life


i'm not suprised they are dehydrated in those pics if its dry season or rains only just starting, or drought, hell to many reasons why it could be dehydrated lol any indication of the time of year they where taken?

I do not think you are understanding something. The natural life of a Savannah monitor is not something you want to entirely replicate. These lizards are from one of the harshest climates on earth. During most of the year, they can only be out looking for food in very small spurts, because of the harshness of their climate. The older (bigger) the lizard gets, the more time it can spend looking for food without getting baked. The rainy season is the exception, the only season in which they can freely roam around foraging. The idea is to make our pet comfortable. The only time Savannah monitors are really comfortable and free in the wild is the rainy season. You should pick up Bennett's book, I think you will enjoy it. He has spoken on the need to improve the enviornment, not try to replicate it. If you properly support your monitor, it will grow more than a wild one.

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

I do not think you are understanding something. The natural life of a Savannah monitor is not something you want to entirely replicate. These lizards are from one of the harshest climates on earth. During most of the year, they can only be out looking for food in very small spurts, because of the harshness of their climate. The older (bigger) the lizard gets, the more time it can spend looking for food without getting baked. The rainy season is the exception, the only season in which they can freely roam around foraging. The idea is to make our pet comfortable. The only time Savannah monitors are really comfortable and free in the wild is the rainy season. You should pick up Bennett's book, I think you will enjoy it. He has spoken on the need to improve the enviornment, not try to replicate it. If you properly support your monitor, it will grow more than a wild one.

I dont agree I'm afraid - I am certainly not talking about putting undue stress on them, but I do believe that replicating the enviroment they have evolved to survive in is an important factor to consider.

Bigger does not mean better, healthier, or more comfortable for the creature, necessarily.

Infact in many species of animal, not having the opportunity to hibernate/aestivate/etc is detrimental to its health.

I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate - temprete winters for eg. (ie norther US, canada, most of europe etc and equivilant latitudes south of the equator); until the invention of the super-market, every animal on this planet had adapted to eat mostly during the summer, and whatever it could store over winter - now look at us, a world of over weight predetors eating ourselves to death as I said in the other thread about hibernation, fasting/dormancy can trigger DNA repair; various recent studies have shown. google if you are interested, sum fascinating stuff re human dna repair after fasting

[franks]

Originally Posted by formica

I dont agree I'm afraid - I am certainly not talking about putting undue stress on them, but I do believe that replicating the enviroment they have evolved to survive in is an important factor to consider.

Bigger does not mean better, healthier, or more comfortable for the creature, necessarily.

Infact in many species of animal, not having the opportunity to hibernate/aestivate/etc is detrimental to its health.

I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate - temprete winters for eg. (ie norther US, canada, most of europe etc and equivilant latitudes south of the equator); until the invention of the super-market, every animal on this planet had adapted to eat mostly during the summer, and whatever it could store over winter - now look at us, a world of over weight predetors eating ourselves to death as I said in the other thread about hibernation, fasting/dormancy can trigger DNA repair; various recent studies have shown. google if you are interested, sum fascinating stuff re human dna repair after fasting

Cool, can you link me? I would enjoy reading that.
"I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate" - Can you explain this? In my opinion, it is not even debatable. Again, I would reference you to Bennett's book. He writes extensively on the harshness of their climate. He is not the only person in the world to know about Savannah Monitors, but nobody has spent the time studying them in the wild that he has and I think that separates his info from "the group." It is impossible to discuss monitor husbandry without having to reference stats or knowledge that he discovered, and in my opinion that is worth something.

Edit: Regarding providing the environment they evolved in: Humans have adapted to live in harsh conditions, but that does not make every condition optimal. I think there is absolutely a difference between surviving and thriving.

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

Cool, can you link me? I would enjoy reading that.
"I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate" - Can you explain this? In my opinion, it is not even debatable. Again, I would reference you to Bennett's book. He writes extensively on the harshness of their climate. He is not the only person in the world to know about Savannah Monitors, but nobody has spent the time studying them in the wild that he has and I think that separates his info from "the group." It is impossible to discuss monitor husbandry without having to reference stats or knowledge that he discovered, and in my opinion that is worth something.

Ok what I ment by 'not a harsh climate' is that temprate regions, like the UK for eg. also go thru extreme tempreture changes, which causes animals to hibernate or become dormant. in the same way that dry/wet seasons cause similar effects along the equator.

Its not about protecting a monitor from what we percieve to be a harsh climate imo, the enviroment is no more harsh than the one I grew up in, reletivly speaking, its about keeping the monitor healthy and giving it a good quality of life - whether or not the quality of life for a monitor living in a humid lush savanna landscape 365 days a year is better than one which doesnt, is debatable, without hard facts about the changes which occour in their physiology and how important those changes are to its health.

Search thru google on studies relating to IGF-1 hormones in humans, and the way they change our bodies during times of fasting (which in our hunter-gather days would have occoured very frequently) - fraid there are far too many links on the subject for me to filter out the ones to send you, but that is the hormone that is important in relation to DNA repair and fasting (ignore the articals about fad diets, there are some key peer-reviewed scientific articals on the subject)

[franks]

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

[franks]

But Savannah Monitors have not adapted to the extremities that the harsh climate presents. They cannot deal with the intense arid heat, that is why they hide constantly from it, coming out quickly and briefly to avoid starvation before retreating again. If it were not for the "wet season" these lizards would most likely not even exist in these regions. They cling on living a far less then ideal life (by their required standards) until one season gives them a respite; a chance to breed, eat freely, and survive. They, like all animals, have requirements. Most of the year, their requirements are barely met by their environment. For a brief part of the year, their requirements seem met in full and they thrive. Savannah Monitor husbandry is based on this for the most part.

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

haha must be my age, was not always like that, but thanks! I love a good discussion, best way to learn imo, and I'm an amateur when it comes to Monitors, so your input is valued, even if i disagree at the time...the more info we can gather together, the more pieces of the puzzle fit into place and the better we can look after our monitors

I wish bosc monitors had some really good scientific research going on, doesnt seem to be anything really at all, they are just food, belts or pets to the scientific community which is a major shame - i wonder if london zoo has any hmm

[franks]

Amazon.com: The Savannah Monitor Lizard: The truth about Varanus exanthematicus. eBook: Ravi Thakordyal, Daniel Bennett: Kindle Store

$5 USD you can download it to your phone. I agree it is sad about the lack of scientific research. This book contains just about all that exists.

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

But Savannah Monitors have not adapted to the extremities that the harsh climate presents. They cannot deal with the intense arid heat, that is why they hide constantly from it, coming out quickly and briefly to avoid starvation before retreating again. If it were not for the "wet season" these lizards would most likely not even exist in these regions. They cling on living a far less then ideal life (by their required standards) until one season gives them a respite; a chance to breed, eat freely, and survive. They, like all animals, have requirements. Most of the year, their requirements are barely met by their environment. For a brief part of the year, their requirements seem met in full and they thrive. Savannah Monitor husbandry is based on this for the most part.

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.

that is their adaption - dormancy, and then glutteny during rainy season, thats what evolutionary adaption is; and there are certain to be physiological changes going on aswell

You might be right, but I would expect to find Sav's in a far wider range than they seem to be found, if they didnt 'like' their wet/dry seasonal changes, I know they are said to be found as far south as the northern congo, and i think it would be interesting to know what the diffrences are between those from Ghana and those from Congo; life-span, size, general health, position in food chain, population density etc would all be a good indicator of how monitors deal with a diffrent enviroment - then again, we might just discover that the Savs from congo have adapted and evolved quite specific ways to deal with life that would leave it to the vultures any where else, and vice-versa