Recent Komodo postings of Dr. Bryan Fry - Page 8

venomdoc · 07-03-13, 04:37 PM

>Didn't Dr Fry say that these enzymes can be found in most saliva such as dogs etc to some degree (i'm not reading it all again) & don't we use the same process to help our digestion!! but is more rapid in rattle snakes digestion etc.

No, I was talking about the bacteria. Separate conversation entirely.

mdfmonitor · 07-04-13, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venomdoc

>Didn't Dr Fry say that these enzymes can be found in most saliva such as dogs etc to some degree (i'm not reading it all again) & don't we use the same process to help our digestion!! but is more rapid in rattle snakes digestion etc.

No, I was talking about the bacteria. Separate conversation entirely.

I've re-read your postings, my point i was making generally was venom/saliva is not needed for the komodo dragon to be an effective predator in it's natural environment.

Thank you for taking the time to post!

murrindindi · 07-04-13, 03:55 PM

Hi again Mark, I hope Bryan will respond to your comments himself.
My thoughts are that the venom is needed, without it they wouldn`t be able to attack and kill with nearly as much success as they do now, they would only have a slashing bite, that would not necessarily cause such heavy blood loss and shock which must make it less likely the usual prey will escape (less energy needed chasing/searching for the injured animal). That`s a very useful and efficient addition to their "weaponry" to my mind.

Gatorhunter1231 · 07-04-13, 04:20 PM

I stated already I have seen rabbits survive bleed out and shock from v.salvadorii. I haven't looked at a taxonomy chart lately but I believe v.salvadorii is second closest relative (maybe third, not sure where v.giganteus falls) with v.varius being the closest. Shouldn't the venom kill the rabbit (well with normal prey size).
Never been bite by a Komodo or lace monitor but croc monitors need no extra help in that department. Not saying the venom doesn't exist or the proteins and enzymes but wonder if we are just giving it to much credit when animals that are attacked are dying from exhaustion, blood loss, and infection instead.

MDT · 07-04-13, 04:30 PM

I think the question that you guys need to ask is "what am I expecting from envenomation?"... If you're expecting the prey item to wither and die as it would from an elapid or viperid source, then your definition of envenomation may need tweaking.

venomdoc · 07-04-13, 04:39 PM

As I have stressed on multiple occasions the venom is there in a supporting role to the teeth, that it is but one part of the combined arsenal. The primary weapon are the teeth and the very deep wounds inflicted by them. The venom keeps the blood from clotting, drops the blood pressure further and also helps induce shock.

In the case of V. salvadorii, the fact that you have seen rabbits survive is meaningless because you are giving it a larger animal than it would be predating on in the wild. In addition, the unnatural encounter in a cage with a very different sort of animal than it would encounter, may not elicit the same hanging-on and chewing that would be the case in the wild. Unlike a snake, the venom is not delivered instantly but requires more contact time. MDT was spot on in pointing it is a horse-for-courses scenario and requires a broadened appreciation of the diversity of venom systems.

murrindindi · 07-04-13, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorhunter1231

I stated already I have seen rabbits survive bleed out and shock from v.salvadorii. I haven't looked at a taxonomy chart lately but I believe v.salvadorii is second closest relative (maybe third, not sure where v.giganteus falls) with v.varius being the closest. Shouldn't the venom kill the rabbit (well with normal prey size).
Never been bite by a Komodo or lace monitor but croc monitors need no extra help in that department. Not saying the venom doesn't exist or the proteins and enzymes but wonder if we are just giving it to much credit when animals that are attacked are dying from exhaustion, blood loss, and infection instead.

Hi, why should the venom have to kill the rabbit (or any other prey), if it just helps to incapacitate the animal in some way surely it`s of benefit to the dragon (and other species)? There are many animals that are only mildly venomous, does that mean the venom is of no use to them?
V. salvadorii have the longest teeth, that doesn`t necessarily mean venom would not be of use to them. They have a considerably smaller body size than an adult komodoensis and can`t attack and bring down similar sized prey (even with venom).
It`s mainly the Water buffalo that die from infection/exhaustion, etc, but they are not the most important (most frequent) prey animal.

Gatorhunter1231 · 07-04-13, 04:59 PM

Doesn't have to die. However the examples I've seen say the animals wonder off and die. Outside of extra blood loss, what key roll is the venom doing that causes death on the attacked animals. Lots of things have venom-hemotoxins and neurotoxins being what I relate to. One shows tissue damage and other shutting down the nervous/cardiovascular system (just simple examples). Varanus venom has anti-collagation effects. I just have not witness anything beyond that. I give it that credit all day.

Gatorhunter1231 · 07-04-13, 05:24 PM

V .salvadorii have been seen feeding on tree kangaroos (not confirmed whether they are scavenging or attacked and killed) Which are larger then a 5lb rabbit.
I 100% don't disagree dr. Fry with your statement above.
I was looking for more details as far as how it aids. Which you stated above. Just seemed a little vague to say it aids in bloodloss, shock, etc. looking for a better breakdown on how it played out after the venom was chewed in.

On another note. Someone already said it early but this really is one of the nicest forums around-rarely does anyone actually get hateful for resort to name calling.

venomdoc · 07-04-13, 06:06 PM

I agree Gatorhunter that this forum is a rare breath of fresh air. Indeed this is the first time I have posted on a forum for years because of the rampant ****wittedness that has inflected most others!

As for the breakdown on how it works, as we only recently discovered the venom there is much work yet to be done. I have an enthusiastic PhD hard at work on the lizard venoms

Gatorhunter1231 · 07-05-13, 08:46 AM

Ahh now we are on the same page Dr. Fry. I just got stuck at venom being the cause of death on animals that got away after an attack. You clearly stated it aids and how. I know my examples sucked as far as what you worked with in the field but it was what I had to relate to. May your research bring you more success and ill be waiting to read the detailed version on the venom soon

.

B_Aller · 07-07-13, 10:20 AM

Sorry if this was covered, just joined and read this thread, but what about the pigmy elephants that once inhabited these islands? I was under the impression that Auffenburg suggested that they were an early prey source, besides, I can't be the only one who envisions a fight betwixt KD's and pigmy elephants! And what about megapodius? They're not huge but there is a known relationship between the two species right? Don't they ever chomp them down? Wouldn't the bacteria or venom help with the predation of megapodius?
Hi Bryan! The offer to study dumerilii offspring is still open, would love to find a way to send you a clutch of babies.
Best.
Ben

venomdoc · 07-07-13, 06:59 PM

Hi Ben,

It was Jared Diamond who proposed komodos evolved as giants to predate on pygmy elephants. However, this was before komodo fossils were discovered in Australia showing the Aussie origin. However, very young pygmy elephants may have been fair game.... as would the 'Hobbits' Homo floresiensis.

B_Aller · 07-09-13, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venomdoc

very young pygmy elephants may have been fair game.... as would the 'Hobbits' Homo floresiensis.

NOW we're talkin' I've just never been able to get past the visual of KD's and pigmy elephants going at it, too many cartoons as a kid I guess.
Considering the Aus origin, my flightless bird idea may not be that crazy after all!
Best

smy_749 · 07-14-13, 10:07 PM

Thats an awesome picture. I don't suppose you have any pictures of komodo's big cousin hunting down hobbits as well do you?