Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[Terranaut]

Not owning a sav I didn't pay much attention to the numbers in the first post. After reading a bit on savs today I decided to look at the humidity levels where they are from. To my surprise the humidity map I looked at did not resemble the conditions you mentioned in your first post. It's rarely 30% humidity there. The "dry" season still seldom dips below 75%. Unless I am reading this wrong.



I think the fluctuations are far less than your study. Considering the chance of gout and other issues savs face from dry air I don't think this good for your sav at all. Now if your dry season was 75% instead of the 95% norm there (yuk...sweat city) it might not be badn. I am not a weather expert but the numbers don't match your study. Where did you get your weather data from?
How did you come up with your numbers?
Just curious.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Not owning a sav I didn't pay much attention to the numbers in the first post. After reading a bit on savs today I decided to look at the humidity levels where they are from. To my surprise the humidity map I looked at did not resemble the conditions you mentioned in your first post. It's rarely 30% humidity there. The "dry" season still seldom dips below 75%. Unless I am reading this wrong.



I think the fluctuations are far less than your study. Considering the chance of gout and other issues savs face from dry air I don't think this good for your sav at all. Now if your dry season was 75% instead of the 95% norm there (yuk...sweat city) it might not be badn. I am not a weather expert but the numbers don't match your study. Where did you get your weather data from?
How did you come up with your numbers?
Just curious.

the humidity varies massively across the African continent and within the Savs territories, some areas remain higher in humidity than others - how this impacts on Savs is an important question - one answer (somewhere on this forum i think) is that Savs are not found in large numbers in those areas, compared to areas which experience a true dry season, however that is not something I can find scientific studies into

(perhaps the studies going on at the moment are looking into this? is that something that Daniel Bennett's work can tell us?)

the numbers I used are based on a wide range of sources, talking to people who have taken readings of their enclosures, and looking at the humidity and temperature levels of areas that Savs are found in large numbers, various recommended books on the subjects - more input is required in this area, but the figures are generally not disputed in themselves, although the variables are more complex and numerous than I have used in the original post, the ones being monitored and adjusted are the ones I have decided are probably the most important

But back to population density in tropical areas which do not experience a dry season, Savs are known to live as far as the Congo, and it would be very interesting to find out how well they do there. They do not seem as common in those areas, as they are further north where dry seasons occur, population density is a good indicator of how well suited an animal is to its enviroment - but currently those numbers need to be confirmed on a large scale i think

[Terranaut]

There would also be a huge variation in prey between those areas as well. To be honest , I think your doing narrow research on a vastly variable subject. You should narrow your experiment to studying what does well in captivity as oposed to attempting to simulate nature or if you do wish to try to mimic nature then choose one local and stick with it. You also mentioned measurements from other keepers enclosures? Do these people simulate dry season? If not shouldn't you not use their readings? If you wish to continue may I suggest choosing a sav heavy location and adjusting your husbandry to match the daily weather for that area. Seems the best choice to give validation to your theory. If the dry season is that important then your sav should live a long healthy life and that is the only true indicator here. IMHO

[MDT]

When in undergrad, my herpetology prof was studying the natural history of Uta s. stansburiana. This was essentially a lifelong pursuit. Not only did he go on multiple collecting trips for specimens, but he spent almost every summer in the desert observing both the animal and the environment. The SW desert of the US is significantly smaller than the range for Sav monitors. But despite the much smaller range, the countless pages of data were staggering. And to my knowledge, he is still working on that species (that was 1984, btw)

I say this to echo Terranaut. Regardless of your survey, regardless of your study group of one animal. Your conclusions/observations/whatever you are calling them are meaningless. It will simply further solidify in your mind that your way of husbandry is correct. Whether accurate or not. Your observational group is too small, your variables are not controlled and too numerous. Just enjoy your lizard. Make a comfortable home for him. Watch it grow and hopefully live a long, predator free life in the UK.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

There would also be a huge variation in prey between those areas as well. To be honest , I think your doing narrow research on a vastly variable subject. You should narrow your experiment to studying what does well in captivity as oposed to attempting to simulate nature or if you do wish to try to mimic nature then choose one local and stick with it. You also mentioned measurements from other keepers enclosures? Do these people simulate dry season? If not shouldn't you not use their readings? If you wish to continue may I suggest choosing a sav heavy location and adjusting your husbandry to match the daily weather for that area. Seems the best choice to give validation to your theory. If the dry season is that important then your sav should live a long healthy life and that is the only true indicator here. IMHO

I said above, the numbers I used where based on known high population density areas - the limits of the adjustments I made, where based on readings on captives (for eg minimum low temp in substrate burrows, max basking temp, burrow humidity etc etc), to ensure that the Sav had access to a safe environment (ie one that it was known to tolerate in the wild), at all times

Yes diet is another important factor, and difficult to judge, what we do know about the food chain, is that during dry season plants die off, this reduces the insect population, and the population of those animals which prey on said insects, and infact all the other animals in the area including grazers, scavengers and predetors are reduced in numbers, the chain follows all the way upto predators like Savs, which are very difficult to find above ground during dry season and must be dug up (Savs are an important food source for locals) - so we know that the type of food available to a Sav would be very diffrent to that available during rainy season - an interested party has offered to send me back some data when they visit Ghana this year, and food/animal types and availability is one area which would be interesting to look into

Originally Posted by MDT

When in undergrad, my herpetology prof was studying the natural history of Uta s. stansburiana. This was essentially a lifelong pursuit. Not only did he go on multiple collecting trips for specimens, but he spent almost every summer in the desert observing both the animal and the environment. The SW desert of the US is significantly smaller than the range for Sav monitors. But despite the much smaller range, the countless pages of data were staggering. And to my knowledge, he is still working on that species (that was 1984, btw)

I say this to echo Terranaut. Regardless of your survey, regardless of your study group of one animal. Your conclusions/observations/whatever you are calling them are meaningless. It will simply further solidify in your mind that your way of husbandry is correct. Whether accurate or not. Your observational group is too small, your variables are not controlled and too numerous. Just enjoy your lizard. Make a comfortable home for him. Watch it grow and hopefully live a long, predator free life in the UK.

I am not trying to conduct a scientific experiment, I have said that at least a dozen times already.

I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point

[MDT]

Originally Posted by formica

my mind wont be changed on that point

That part has been established.

[Terranaut]

I also don't see how this is 60% of the animals life cycle. I see 40% at best? Please explain?

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

I also don't see how this is 60% of the animals life cycle. I see 40% at best? Please explain?

rainy seasons lasts from 3 to 9 months, varying by location, and year on year. average 4-6 months, with 1 month of very heavy rain. some years it doesnt rain at all.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by formica

I said above, the numbers I used where based on known high population density areas - the limits of the adjustments I made, where based on readings on captives (for eg minimum low temp in substrate burrows, max basking temp, burrow humidity etc etc), to ensure that the Sav had access to a safe environment (ie one that it was known to tolerate in the wild), at all times

Yes diet is another important factor, and difficult to judge, what we do know about the food chain, is that during dry season plants die off, this reduces the insect population, and the population of those animals which prey on said insects, and infact all the other animals in the area including grazers, scavengers and predetors are reduced in numbers, the chain follows all the way upto predators like Savs, which are very difficult to find above ground during dry season and must be dug up (Savs are an important food source for locals) - so we know that the type of food available to a Sav would be very diffrent to that available during rainy season - an interested party has offered to send me back some data when they visit Ghana this year, and food/animal types and availability is one area which would be interesting to look into



I am not trying to conduct a scientific experiment, I have said that at least a dozen times already.

I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point

Now I haven't read your survey, I would be interested in reading the questions

When studying for my own undergraduate degree in took various courses in which I conducted social surveys, focus groups, and came up with procedural criteria for social studies.

From what I know about those things I think you're experiment isn't going to answer what it should. As others have said its all too broad.

For example if you wanted to use natural populations of monitors as a control group you would have to collect specimens, examine the weather patterns of the area, examine stomach content, stool samples etc. Tagging specimens for follow up over the course of an extended period of time.

Then using a large captive collection which you would have to keep yourself, set up a number of enclosures with different keeping parameters some of which should match wild populations, others should be kept in optimal conditions without dry season. Etc.

This survey and your subsequent changes in the way you're keeping this animal are in my opinion a teeny tiny itty bitty part of something. The issue is you're using semantics to validate this as far more complete research than it really is

[formica]

The survey is not trying to prove or disprove anything, and has nothing to do with this thread, other than answering terranuts question.

The survey is simply collecting information about husbandry techniques/parameters, captive or wild sourcing, age and cause of death.

[lady_bug87]

I would disagree based on your other responses to this thread. You continue to mention that ignoring 60% Of the year in the weather cycle is wrong and you mention others providing similar situations.

Also I personally haven't seen any evidence of wild sourcing. Or comparison between wild and captive population

If you weren't trying to prove something than why defend yourself in that way?

[formica]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

I would disagree based on your other responses to this thread. You continue to mention that ignoring 60% Of the year in the weather cycle is wrong and you mention others providing similar situations.

If you weren't trying to prove something than why defend yourself in that way?

I mentioned 1 providing similar situations (although infact i did not detail anything beyond the basic survey responses), as part of a response to a specific question which was only loosely connected to the topic at hand - everyone else jumped on the answer and used it to attack what the thread was actually about, the only reason I responded, was to explain what the survey was about, rather than leaving it with responses which made incorrect assertions about its content and purpose.

The 60% of life cycle figure has nothing to do with the Survey whatsoever.

[mdfmonitor]

In the right wild environment they find their own conditions that suit them, if they fail they die or get eaten!

I've kept savs/b/throat/nile/ackies & argus now & one thing they all have in common is they can grow very quick, even held back a year they can still catch up to what size they would of got by the end of the 1st year.

If heated properly & not over fed they'll will still eat very small insects, even at 4.5 foot they'll take small locust.

So nature has moulded them into animals that can grow very quick & take advantage of seasonal food resources & environments, in captivity we can create these perfect environments all year round.

So as a keeper we need ideally not to over do the growth as in feeding 4 days out the week as they get older/larger & putting them through cooler periods. I recently put Lenny (vph) through a cooling session for 3 weeks till the weather hotted up to early across here in the UK, i was quickly told they don't need cooling. I went on to explain i'd dropped the temps down to 140f surface basking spot & around 73f background temps, his usual temps are 160f surface basking spot & around 76f back ground temps, this shut him down.

Many keepers still keep their animals at the temps i was using to cool Lenny, point been you should have times they are not running at full pelt, but at the same time you need the higher temps to maintain a good fit body condition, you can't achieve that on 120f & 75f background heat.

A good sized run with deep substrate/ or decent large soil boxes will allow your sav to find what it's needs as opposed to what we think it needs, they do need slow periods as in a dry season but the sav will find the right temp underground with the right humidity till the correct environment returns above ground, so a good set-up backed with the right temps it won't bother the sav because that's what they evolved to do.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

I have not posted up any conclusions! perhaps you assumed that I had, based on the fact that others have inferred conclucions on my post and then argued against said conclusions, which I myself had not written.

nor did I claim success, but simply reported that my Sav is in good health after a short time under the conditions as described in the original post.

My apologies. I wasn't aware that saying something like this (again, with no prior experience to base this off of) is not considered a claim of success.

Originally Posted by formica

Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health

What was that about not drawing any conclusions?

Originally Posted by formica

I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point

Personally, I do not believe that ignoring the advice given to you on this thread by 100% of the verified successful breeders and keepers posting here is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind won't be changed on that point.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

What was that about not drawing any conclusions?

not my conclusion, but that of a specialist reptile vet who saw him before and after - as I stated would be happening at the start of the thread.