What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by gonesnakee
I personally get more satisfaction out of producing/providing a child with their first snake than one worth 1000's.

Commendable..... This is what this hobby should be about..... But what exactly does this have to do with polluting captive populations with hybrids????

[M_surinamensis]

Captive interfertility is nearly meaningless from a taxonomic standpoint. It's too imprecise and far too open to really have any scientific validity for much of anything... and the few things it would tend to support (like perhaps more recent common anscestry than previously believed) could be shown FAR more easily and far more accurately with an appropriate attention to gene mapping and work on expanding fossil chains.

NERD makes hybrids because hybrids are worth money and they've picked a side in the ethical debate centering around the topic. To imply that there's some kind of higher scientific purpose to the constant creation of "the next thing" other than the advertising generated when they take some pictures is... Well, to be honest a little naive.

I'm really not sure why Kara hasn't commented on the number of offspring which have survived. IF as a hypothetical, it's a full seven out of the seven which hatched there's almost some justification to a position that there may not be immediate and overwhelming health issues (although they really would have to grow and live a full lifespan to support that position completely). If a number of them have died, after the poor hatch rate, it would be a strong indicator in the other direction. Either way, it would help in this particular discussion even though there are multiple objections which can be made to their initial creation.

Thinking back on it... I really do not dislike NERD or the people there. I dislike a number of their practices (There never was a real clear answer about where those venomoids came from or how the NERD staff treated them... and I obviously object to the hybrids) but I respect the fact that they won't intentionally misrepresent an animal as being healthy when it isn't and aren't going to sell anything in poor condition. I'm not saying they're honest to a fault... to be fair there are probably quite a few small dishonesties... I'm just saying that most of the hard statements are either accurate or largely unimportant. I'm not sure what prompts the ambigiousness and elusiveness when asked direct questions at times but it definitely doesn't help the public opinion of a few of their more controversial practices and really doesn't help any fence sitters make a decision about things like the hybrid topic since there are such obvious conflicts about what is and is not accurate.

For what it's worth, I agree completely with Gregg about the whole thing and don't see any problems with the way he's vocalizing his position. Since some of it from both sides will be a matter of perspective and some of it from both sides has been fairly heavy conjecture it's... difficult for some people to accept that there's validity in another's opinion and that conjecture is essentially equally valid all around. However it's not really too educated or insightful to demand more from Gregg while failing utterly to provide any more hard information for (nonspecific and generalized) themselves.

[greenman1867]

I think the issue has become more about the manner in which Gregg has chosen to express his opinion, not the fact that his opinion differs from anyone else’s. We all have opinions and we all disagree with people everyday. However when you are on a soapbox preaching to people and aggressively discounting any opinion but your own, that’s when it becomes a problem.

I am glad that he has his values and stands by them. That certainly does not give him the right to tear into someone whose opinion is not the same as his. In the real world (not sitting at a keyboard) that kind of behaviour can get you into a lot of trouble.

I guess that’s one of the problems with forums. People get to act out in ways they would never dare to in real life.

Regardless, as interesting as this topic has been, it's going nowhere. So, I am done.

[Gregg M]

Soap box??? Is that what you call it when someone can actually back up an objecting (different than yours) stance with true scientific study behind it??? Hybrids have got to be wrong because the HUGE majority of then do not work out and the majority of the one that do "work" usually have health and reproductive issues..... That is a fact..... Sure, once in a while there may be hybrids that work out but that does not mean it was supposed to be...... The fact is, it would most likely never happen unless there was human intervention..... Human intervention is not always a good thing and is more often than not, the wrong thing.....

Do I work with hybrids???? No..... I work with naturally occuring intergrades that were WITH OUT A DOUBT wild caught...... See, there was a chance of natural selection here which is a heck of alot more than I can say for the larger majority of crosses in this country or any......

Soap box??? What ever!!! I guess that is like a default line people use when they can not back up their claims.....

Its also funny how all of a sudden certain individuals want to drop out and say this is going no where...... I guess that is what some do when there is no longer just one person challenging their unbacked opinion.....

I held my ground when there were 5 of you trying to pick me apart...... Now back up your opinion with something more than someone elses opinion..... Give me something solid...... Can you do that????

[ravensgait]

Well a bit late to this discussion , I've read almost all the post in this thread especially Greg's OK because I got a laugh from reading his. Greg you keep harping on science yet you have yet to show any tiny little bit of science to support your view point. With all that there supposed learnin ya has a gotten ya would think yous could well SHOW SOMETHING that supports your um well OK VIEWS is a nice way of putting it. Gee history is full of those who rode their misguided moral righteousness down in Flames. Greg you show nothing to back up your argument the only thing you do is attempt to belittle and insult those who disagree with you. Gee keep right on a going, what is that quote "better to be thought a fool by keeping your mouth closed than to speak and remove all doubt" something like that. It would be one thing to discuss this with everyone here and provide information that supports your point of view but no Greg all you do is say it's WRONG it's WRONG, it's wrong because I say it's wrong boo hoo It's obvious to anyone who finished most of high school and who has kept herps for a year or two that you haven't a clue what you saying in this discussion on Hybrids,(or else have a hard time putting thoughts to words) gee lets throw in INBREEDING and really get ya going.

One thing that gets me is that we are talking about Pythons here the SUB Species Python which if you think evolution is correct then these two localitys being pythons are rather closely related. They evolved to fit into the habitat in which they live. In other words they are different because of time, distance and habitat.

So why is this cross breeding so wrong? No I don't want to hear it's wrong because you say so, give a real reason this shouldn't be done. Now if someone found a way to breed Boas and Pythons two very different snakes oops they are both Snakes and now I've opened a whole new can of worms, Worms are not closely related to snakes are they? LOL

Hey it's like this if you like Hybrids good for you if you don't want one that's OK too, but trying to ram your own sense of morals down others throats well that's just wrong any way you look at it. Man there are some real wrongs in this world that need champions go find a real wrong to right.
Randy

[Jeff_Favelle]

One thing that gets me is that we are talking about Pythons here the SUB Species Python

Explain that sentence please. Python is NOT a subspecies. Its a GENUS in a sub-FAMILY (Pythoninae). I think that's what Gregg is trying to get at. For God's sake someone, give him a real argument with your facts STRAIGHT! That's all he wants! Half the posts have either been about how Gregg delivered his material wrong (boo hoo) and the other have has been like the sentence I just provided.

I'm not on any side. That is, I wouldn't voice my opinion on someone else's thread where they are clearly proud of their accomplishment. But I do like a good debate, so will someone hurry up and give Gregg a run for his money. Isbell, come back!!!!!!!!!!!

Man there are some real wrongs in this world that need champions go find a real wrong to right.

This is a snake forum. We talk about snakes here. No World Wars are ended at ssnakess.com.

[ravensgait]

Oh give me a break Jeff it's after one AM I've been up since 4:30 yesterday morning, i'm on foal watch, dang mare will wait till i have to go pee and drop it lol I'm surprised i spelled most the words right.

OK now before i run to the john lol I'll pick one thing Hybrid vigor, Greg said nope no such thing . Well i could type my fingers off but I will just use an example a simple one dogs we all know a little about dogs. years ago Dalmatians were in real trouble they were having hearing problems IE deaf and well a whole slough of other genetic thingies going wrong. Well breeders wanted to solve or at least improve some of the problems so they came up with an idea to breed Pointers into their breed and breed back to over generations get pure Dals again. AKC signed on and bingo the first litters were a success stronger healthier dogs but other breeders got upset and pressured AKC to pull it's approval which it did. The simple point is that the pups were stronger faster opps Old TV show. anyway if someone wants they can do a search and get the info on this just one simple example of Hybrid vigor and there are oh so many other examples out there. OK i'm out of here, stupid mare is just looking at the camera like she's saying Ha Ha I'm keeping your A@@ awake I'll wait till 5 am to do this. By the way the male in 101 Dalmatians was a cross AHHHH..Randy

PS Jeff where is this science greg supposedly used that we should be rebutting?????????????????????????????????????

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by ravensgait
OK now before i run to the john lol I'll pick one thing Hybrid vigor, Greg said nope no such thing . Well i could type my fingers off but I will just use an example a simple one dogs we all know a little about dogs. years ago Dalmatians were in real trouble they were having hearing problems IE deaf and well a whole slough of other genetic thingies going wrong. Well breeders wanted to solve or at least improve some of the problems so they came up with an idea to breed Pointers into their breed and breed back to over generations get pure Dals again. AKC signed on and bingo the first litters were a success stronger healthier dogs but other breeders got upset and pressured AKC to pull it's approval which it did. The simple point is that the pups were stronger faster opps Old TV show.

Umm yeah nice try but dogs are all the same species so that is a very poor example of hybrid vigor...... That is an example of outcrossing bloodlines within the SAME SPECIES......I need something better than that........ Not trying to belittle you but there was very little thought in this post and nothing leaning towards hybrids..... I almost feel bad that you typed all of that, way off topic info..... But not really.....

Like I said, pick up a book other than "reptiles for dummies" and you might find some real info...... Do I have to do all the work here for you???? Most of my info is not on the net..... It comes from actual text in biology books..... Sorry if I do not feel like writing 5 pages worth of info that will clearly go way over your heads.... I will try to shorten it and put it into terms you might understand when I have a chance..... I will post a new topic on it for all to read.......

[greenman1867]

Originally posted by Gregg M
Soap box??? Is that what you call it when someone can actually back up an objecting (different than yours) stance

Its also funny how all of a sudden certain individuals want to drop out and say this is going no where...... I guess that is what some do when there is no longer just one person challenging their unbacked opinion.....

I think maybe you should go back and re-read everyone of my posts. I never said which side of the Hybrid fence I am sitting. I don't really care what your opinion is, or anyone else's. I am more of a Pro Choice kind of guy. I just don't like your superiority complex.

I choose to stop this foolishness because obviously your ego won't let you. Either that or you like to pick fights where you never actually have to look the other person in the eye.

Feel free to rant and rave, every post you prove my argument more and more.

[greenman1867]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
For God's sake someone, give him a real argument with your facts STRAIGHT!.

I'm not on any side. That is, I wouldn't voice my opinion on someone else's thread where they are clearly proud of their accomplishment.

See, I am of the same opinion as you Jeff, I am not on any side really. I do not have a list of degree's and accomplishments to attach to my name. None herp related anyways. I have no facts regarding Hybrids to get straight. I have however been a Man for 34 years and know how much other men and women like having someone try to force their opinions and ideologies on them.

I realized a couple post's ago this was going nowhere as not a soul here actually has the proof one way or another, this is all opinion. So, once again that's it for me.

I am sure Gregg will come back and accuse me of running and try to egg me on some more, however I don't feel there is any reason to carry this out any further. We are arguing to totally different points.

Gregg thinks hybrids should all die violent deaths to Cobras and such, and I think Gregg has several issues he needs to deal with that regarding how he interacts with people and express's his views.

[M_surinamensis]

And another day goes by without an answer about HOW MANY OF THESE DAMN THINGS ARE STILL ALIVE...

[Invictus]

You want science Gregg? FINE. Jungle corns have been bred for 20+ years and have yet to show any signs of genetic weakness. Henry's Blood python / borneo python crosses reproduce just fine and are actually quite lovely. Sincorns (corn x sinaloan milk) have been proven to show no such genetic weaknesses either. So get off your pompous high horse, because you are attempting to "prove" that all hybrids are wrong, and I just proved in three examples that it is YOU who is wrong here. Now go cry yourself to sleep, I know being proven wrong is tough for you egotists to take.

[RB420]

cant we all just agree to disagree

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by Invictus
You want science Gregg? FINE. Jungle corns have been bred for 20+ years and have yet to show any signs of genetic weakness. Henry's Blood python / borneo python crosses reproduce just fine and are actually quite lovely. Sincorns (corn x sinaloan milk) have been proven to show no such genetic weaknesses either. So get off your pompous high horse, because you are attempting to "prove" that all hybrids are wrong, and I just proved in three examples that it is YOU who is wrong here. Now go cry yourself to sleep, I know being proven wrong is tough for you egotists to take.

Where is the science in that statement???? That is just your take on the situation...... Besides, look at the eyes on those "jungle corns"..... They look alittle bugged out to me.....LOL..... Another thing, I never said they all dont work....... I am saying that just because a few might have slipped through some genetic crack, it does not make it right....... Honestly, do you think for a second, if a king and corn met in the wild, they would breed??? LOL...... Answer that question and be honest...... Do you think that two animals from two different land masses whould ever breed in the wild???? I have not cried my self to sleep in like 25 years and your pathetic attempt to "prove me wrong", will not have me start here......LOL....... I actually had a very good sleep.....LOL.... You did not prove anything...... All you proved was your ignorance and your unableness to put solid scientific info on the plate when it was called for.......

So now even my high horse is pompous??? LOL..... Instead of calling me names and telling me I am on a "high horse", try getting up to the plate with a good, old fashioned, wooden bat, not the wiffel ball bat you are all swinging around at me.....LOL......

So I ask again, give me something that proves that hybrids are good on a biologic level and that they are good for the captive bloodlines.....

Hybrid vigor..... LOL..... That is a breeders way of trying to justify their god complex......

I am far from an egotisic..... Give me an example of me being that way....... How am I pompous???? Because I can back up my claim with SCIENTIFIC STUDY and none of you pro hybid people can??? Some of you are even having trouble with what is a species and subspecies and what animals are the same species......LOL..... How can one not laugh at that????

I am also with Seamus on this issue of these hybrid producers not answering a pretty simple question...... How many are still alive????

Just think of the physical and mental being of this cross in this thread...... One species has heat pits and the other does not...... They are from two different environments....... They are as different from eachother as they both are to a retic.....

Invictus, I think you need to see your way out of this because you can not bring anything to the table but other peoples opinions...... Plus your lack of reptilian experiance is very apparent...... Quit while you still can.....

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Gregg M
[B]Where is the science in that statement???? That is just your take on the situation......

Oh, so you have FACTS, and all I have is a take on the situation? Greg, you're so full of crap, I'm surprised your neighbors don't complain about the smell. You wanted an example of you being pompous? There it is!

Besides, look at the eyes on those "jungle corns"..... They look alittle bugged out to me.....

Another shining example of YOU not knowing what the hell you are talking about. I have never seen bugged out eyes on a jungle corn.

Invictus, I think you need to see your way out of this because you can not bring anything to the table but other peoples opinions...... Plus your lack of reptilian experiance is very apparent...... Quit while you still can.....

Other peoples' opinions??? Greg, you have got to be the biggest moron on this board. My opinions are my own, and just because they are not good enough for you does not mean that I am not educated enough to form an opinion on the subject. As for my "lack of reptilian experience", hmmmm.... 2 years in the hobby, but countless years of research, and experience working with over 100 species of reptiles (probably well over 300 individual specimens), plus being one of a small group of people who ship reptiles nationally, and soon internationally. Yeah, you're right Greg, I'm inexperienced. You're just proving the rest of us more and more right with your pompous attitude, and you're looking like more of an idiot and less of an "educated" man with every post. By all means, keep posting.

Other peoples' opinions, lol... you're a riot, man.