Hognose venom "debate" over. - Page 5

jaleely · 05-27-12, 05:55 PM

kernel.... unfortunately for me hand, we figured that method out the hard way *LOL*
If i'd known what to do earlier, it probably wouldn't have lasted that long. I'll agree to that! I've always been one to learn the hard way *lol*
I guess i just kept expecting him to let go on his own. Under water, alcohol...it was a last resort for me to handle him. That was a big part of it too, i was really worried about him getting injured. It's always a possibility. I tend to mother my animals though : )

bladeblaster · 05-28-12, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAW

After reading some of the reactions to my post, I am reminded why I typically refrain from commenting on topics in Internet fora. I appreciate that some have taken the time to read my post in total and also have considered the different levels of discussion of the topic. It did require some detail, and thus it was a bit "long winded". As I am not going to respond to personal slights or to those who clearly have their "beliefs" (I stated that the point was to offer an alternative and less "advertised" consensus) re this subject, I will only bullet a few take home points and respond generally to a couple of inaccurate comments.

The definition of venom has traditionally been dependent on function, how it is used, NOT on the presence of toxins alone OR on the incidental effects of these substances on humans. Recently, one group of investigators (Fry et al. ) have HYPOTHESIZED a different definition of "venom" based on phylogenetic origins and the presence of toxins with the ASSUMPTION of function. A number of long-term investigators and I do not agree that at this time there is sufficient evidence to change the definition. It certainly may change in the future, but it is premature at this time as function of so many of the species by this criteria labeled as "venomous" (e.g. bearded dragons, Pogona spp. etc.) do not evidence any use of toxins in their oral secretions as "venoms". This includes Heterodon as these snakes swallow their prey alive and show no "subtle" prey subjugation assistance via their Duvernoy's secretions. Perhaps, some extensive and carefully conducted future observations will support the use of the term "venom" for these, but the current evidence is lacking. The Fry group and my colleagues and I are currently debating this and you will be seeing more about this in the near future.

Regarding "misinformation":
I purposely cited our recent book and previous review of Heterodon bites in order to direct interested parties to more detailed discussion of this fascinating topic. Obviously, a few contributors here didn't read that. Briefly, there are only a few publications re the Duvernoy's secretions of Heterodon spp. The papers by Hill and Mackessy and Young only demonstrate the presence of toxins, not function. Following the criteria that this proves "venom", suggests that humans are venomous too.

As noted above, I am well aware of the literature and our book and paper mentioned above include detailed critical review of ALL of the literature re Heterodon Duvernoy's secretions vs venom. I never stated that I had not"reviewed the literature".

I included my titles as one often does not know who is commenting in Internet fora. I was not presenting pretense; rather, taking responsibility for my comments and, yes, there is over 35 years professional experience behind them. As I said, I am not trying to change beliefs, just assure that interested readers are aware of "both sides of the story".

One last comment re misinformation:
Never ignore a symptomatic snakebite based on the reported experience of others. I have treated a handful of Heterodon bites, as well as a large number of other "colubrid" bites and some were inconsequential and a few, such as the one we published, we're significant.
DO NOT take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory meds after any snakebite as this can increase bleeding tendencies; again, the effects of many non-front-fanged colubrids bites (including that of Heterodon) are poorly characterized. My apologies for the additional "long-winded" post, but the subject is not just "semantics".
It's been an interesting exchange and I hope it has been infoative to open-minded readers. SAW

That was more interesting than the first post TBH, I think perhaps it was down to the wording of the first post. It seemed to be being presented as absolute fact, and then in the same breath contradicting itself.

The subject is under debate on the broad terminology of venom and what exactly constitutes a venom. So it really is semantics for the bite victim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

Nice post

Viperkeeper · 05-28-12, 07:52 PM

Wow! Nice envenoming! Not sure if there's much that can do at the hospital except make things worse. If you want to talk to somebody who's treated Hognose bites I can put you in touch with my "Bite Doc" Dr Dan Keyler. who was one of the author of this newly published book.

Good Luck!

Al Coritz

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Venomous%C2%94-Bites-Non-Venomous-Snakes-Management/dp/0123877326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338256170&sr=8-1"]

youngster · 05-28-12, 09:28 PM

Holy crap Jaleely, Viperkeeper just posted this thread to his facebook lol. You're practically famous!

jaleely · 05-28-12, 10:22 PM

lol oh i try...it must be the attractive hands!

infernalis · 05-29-12, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viperkeeper

Wow! Nice envenoming! Not sure if there's much that can do at the hospital except make things worse. If you want to talk to somebody who's treated Hognose bites I can put you in touch with my "Bite Doc" Dr Dan Keyler. who was one of the author of this newly published book.

Good Luck!

Al Coritz

Is this the same guy all over youtube & facebook?

StudentoReptile · 05-29-12, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Is this the same guy all over youtube & facebook?

Yes it is.

infernalis · 05-29-12, 08:28 AM

Evidently he does not think I know anything about Savannah Monitors.

He thinks it's acceptable practice to tether a Sav to a table leg with a hot rock and water bowl, and I am a douche for saying it's not acceptable.

and according to him, the savannahs is a desert.

jaleely · 05-29-12, 08:58 PM

Many people dislike this website, but I actually found this silly story to be incredibly more informative as to how the Duvernoy's glad actually works, than a lot of the (good!) information posted here...I find that as I get older I like more things to be simply stated, though I do enjoy a good article every now and then.

Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping

So! What I took from this was that it may be the proteins in the venom, secreted from the glads..that mix with the saliva which then gets into the wound, through the puncture areas.
Is this a correct summation?
Also, they are rear fanged, to help them capture and *keep* a hold of their prey, since they do not constrict.

Just trying to be more layman's termed here : ) What do you guys think?

Gregg M · 05-29-12, 09:00 PM

Al is a good friend of mine. He is one of the best venomous guys in the hobby. Not everyone is into varanids. If he did indeed say that it is because when folks like him and I started keeping reptiles, those practices were acceptable. Or he could have been playing around.

Gregg M · 05-29-12, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaleely

Many people dislike this website, but I actually found this silly story to be incredibly more informative as to how the Duvernoy's glad actually works, than a lot of the (good!) information posted here...I find that as I get older I like more things to be simply stated, though I do enjoy a good article every now and then.

Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping

So! What I took from this was that it may be the proteins in the venom, secreted from the glads..that mix with the saliva which then gets into the wound, through the puncture areas.
Is this a correct summation?
Also, they are rear fanged, to help them capture and *keep* a hold of their prey, since they do not constrict.

Just trying to be more layman's termed here : ) What do you guys think?

Word of advice.
Take what Melissa Kaplan writes with a tiny grain of salt.

Venom is made up of peptides, amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins, lipids, nucleosides, and other various things. Mixing with saliva has nothing at all to do with the symptoms of a venomous bite.

Rear fangs did not evolve to hold or capture prey. Their regular, recurved, nonvenom secreting teeth do that job perfectly well. The rear fangs in honose snakes are also NOT for popping toads as some people still seem to believe.

jaleely · 05-29-12, 09:44 PM

I thought someone else wrote it, it was just posted on her site?
But I'm not aurguing, I know there's many questions about what's posted on that site *lol*

Okay...good I'm glad you wrote that about the venom. I was wondering what hognose venom is made up of...I was injected once with the venom of a sting ray (Yes, I am a habitual bad decision maker when it comes to animals lol...not really a laughing matter, but kind of *rolls eyes*)
And research showed that putting the wound in hot water helped break down the proteins in the venom, and completely relieved the pain....which it did.
For kicks I did try this with the hognose bite, and of course it didn't work (can't blame a girl for trying).

Anyway, was just curious as to if we have the research on what it's made up of more-or-less. I know it's probably complicated, but you may see what I'm asking.

Good to point out that mixing the saliva has no affect. I actually was under the impression from reading that, that it did have.

Also good to bring up the fangs. Why are they rear-fanged? I had also heard it was for "popping" toads...I did think the fact that they were so curved helped latch on to the prey, so it couldn't get away. Another reason people (i think) don't think they need to have venom, so it was hard to imagine they had it. They are pretty efficient at latching on to prey.

BarelyBreathing · 05-29-12, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Word of advice.
Take what Melissa Kaplan writes with a tiny grain of salt.

FINALLY! I've been saying that for years now, and everybody still believes she is the best vet out there.

Okay, but enough about her, what do you propose rear fanged animals evolved those rear fangs for? I always thought it was for a stronger hold. Apparently I am wrong.

Gregg M · 05-29-12, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

FINALLY! I've been saying that for years now, and everybody still believes she is the best vet out there.

Okay, but enough about her, what do you propose rear fanged animals evolved those rear fangs for? I always thought it was for a stronger hold. Apparently I am wrong.

Rear fangs in colubrids evolved for the same reasons front fangs did in Viperids and elapids. To work venom into the punctures they inflict to immobilize prey. There is a reason why all rear fanged colubrid species have Duvernoy's glands. Snakes that use other methods to dispatch prey like constriction, entirely lack Duvernoy's glands and fangs. For instance, pyhons, boas, corn snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, and so on all lack the fangs and glands. Fangs and teeth are very different from eachother. Many people do not know the difference.

Also, if you look at the rear fang of most colubrids, they are either only very slightly recurved or not recurved at all. Hognose rear fangs are not very recurved at all. They are however hinged.

BarelyBreathing · 05-29-12, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Rear fangs in colubrids evolved for the same reasons front fangs did in Viperids and elapids. To work venom into the punctures they inflict to immobilize prey. There is a reason why all rear fanged colubrid species have Duvernoy's glands. Snakes that use other methods to dispatch prey like constriction, entirely lack Duvernoy's glands and fangs. For instance, pyhons, boas, corn snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, and so on all lack the fangs and glands. Fangs and teeth are very different from eachother. Many people do not know the difference.

No, I get that. That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why they evolved (do you think) to have a less effective means of envenomating their prey than other venomous species?