My wife's first snake, Sidney - Page 5

KORBIN5895 · 11-30-11, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Sure that may be a reason but it doesn't mean we need to skimp on their needs or best interest for our sake too. We chose them, they didn't choose us. Why should we cut their needs for our benefit?

Well said Aaron. I think too many of us tend to forget that important part. The only animal to choose me would be a very hungry snake or a slug.:

pythons9991 · 12-08-11, 10:10 PM

Ball pythons are shy secretive creatures and using bright basking lights on them can cause them undue stress and is a common cause of the snake going off feed. aquariums are also very hard to create the proper heat and humidity that balls require, your best bet would be a plastic enclosure with a hinged or sliding door on the front, flexwatt heat tape covering 1/3 of the enclosure heats this type of enclosure nicely without needing any kind of bulbs and the snakes feel very secure my ball pythons rarley miss a meal except when in shed and their sheds are always perfect.

spots · 12-08-11, 11:38 PM

I have a BP and use a day light during the day and red light for night. I haven't had problems. My BP even eats during shed!! I have even seen him cruising around his viv during the day. (early morning or a hour or so before lights out)

IMO. I think using lights is fine considering in the wild there is a sun producing a bright light during the day. (just need to be sure to use a timer to give proper lighting times)
As for humidity it isn't very hard to hold proper levels in a aquarium if you use bark chips and cover part of the screen.

Again this is all IMO (there is so many ways to accomplish the same goal)

jarich · 12-09-11, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons9991

Ball pythons are shy secretive creatures and using bright basking lights on them can cause them undue stress and is a common cause of the snake going off feed. aquariums are also very hard to create the proper heat and humidity that balls require, your best bet would be a plastic enclosure with a hinged or sliding door on the front, flexwatt heat tape covering 1/3 of the enclosure heats this type of enclosure nicely without needing any kind of bulbs and the snakes feel very secure my ball pythons rarley miss a meal except when in shed and their sheds are always perfect.

Basically, all snakes are shy and secretive, but in my experience BPs as a species do not seem to be any more so than any other snake. Of course, individuals have their own "personality", but this seems to often be the result of how they were raised rather than any inherent trait of BPs. Ive had some that were very shy, and others that were the polar opposite.

As for your assertion that a light source often causes them to go off feeding, I'd be curious to see the information behind this. These animals live in the open grasslands and savannas of Africa, a very sunny place indeed. In fact, the easiest way to catch them in the wild is by "sun traps". While Im not comparing a heat lamp to the sun, it seems unlikely that the snake would stop feeding because of a bright light source. Unless, of course, there was no where for it to go to escape said light source. Then it would be a matter of not providing proper hides that caused the problem, however, and not the light.

Obviously when we talk about what is best between a tank or a tub, we are often talking about small differences. You can create a good environment in either one with enough care and attention. I think that my biggest concern with tub set ups is the ease with which they are ignored. Of course there are many people on the forum who take good care, whether it be tub or tank, but the number of pictures I see with a tub set up where there is just a water dish and paper towel is pretty incredible. If there is a glass enclosure it at least seems to motivate people to put some effort into creating an environment for the snake, with hides, plant decor, etc.

I think we need to get beyond the idea of our reptiles living and breeding as the indicator of health. We now know the conditions for those things to easily happen, whether it be tub, tank, closet, or cardboard box. Now lets take it a step further, how do we recreate as closely as possible their natural habitats? Its definitely not easy, and I know I dont do it all the time either. (God, my bearded dragon is a pooping machine and is really testing the limits of my set up for him) However, its something we should try to keep in mind when deciding to purchase or create an enclosure. There are some brilliant examples of great enclosures on this forum, and all of them are either custom built or are in glass set ups. I cant think of a single example of an amazing enclosure Ive seen in a tub because they are, rather, the example of a convenient enclosure. Its convenient for the keeper, that is, because they have so many snakes, or not enough floor space, or not enough time or whatever else is the reason. The thing about those reasons is that they are all about the keeper and not about the reptile.

Again this is just me thinking out loud, not trying to tell anyone that just because they have tubs there is something wrong.

**Aaron_S** · 12-10-11, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

...Obviously when we talk about what is best between a tank or a tub, we are often talking about small differences. You can create a good environment in either one with enough care and attention. I think that my biggest concern with tub set ups is the ease with which they are ignored. Of course there are many people on the forum who take good care, whether it be tub or tank, but the number of pictures I see with a tub set up where there is just a water dish and paper towel is pretty incredible. If there is a glass enclosure it at least seems to motivate people to put some effort into creating an environment for the snake, with hides, plant decor, etc.

I think we need to get beyond the idea of our reptiles living and breeding as the indicator of health. We now know the conditions for those things to easily happen, whether it be tub, tank, closet, or cardboard box. Now lets take it a step further, how do we recreate as closely as possible their natural habitats? Its definitely not easy, and I know I dont do it all the time either. (God, my bearded dragon is a pooping machine and is really testing the limits of my set up for him) However, its something we should try to keep in mind when deciding to purchase or create an enclosure. There are some brilliant examples of great enclosures on this forum, and all of them are either custom built or are in glass set ups. I cant think of a single example of an amazing enclosure Ive seen in a tub because they are, rather, the example of a convenient enclosure. Its convenient for the keeper, that is, because they have so many snakes, or not enough floor space, or not enough time or whatever else is the reason. The thing about those reasons is that they are all about the keeper and not about the reptile.

Again this is just me thinking out loud, not trying to tell anyone that just because they have tubs there is something wrong.

I beg to differ on your thoughts here. You're trying to tell me that my choice of enclosure isn't good enough for my snakes. The reason I beg to differ has nothing to do with convenience for me. Ball pythons, and speaking entirely for ball pythons here, they do not require branches and trees and borrows to "play" on. All my animals needs are met within their tub. Ball pythons choose to live in termite mounds or smaller hides. My tubs recreate this atmosphere. A ball python honestly would not leave a burrow or a hollow tree branch on the ground if they had security and a food source. Abandoned termite mounds are secure, and a home for many other animals a ball python may eat. They'd only need to really leave for water.

I believe I have met their "natural" habitat.

mykee · 12-10-11, 05:59 PM

BTW, Aaron knows his stuff, I would take his advice to heart. He's forgotten more in the last month about ball pythons than you've ever known.

EasternGirl · 12-10-11, 06:22 PM

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

**millertime89** · 12-10-11, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasternGirl

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

Just about anywhere, they can range from as cheap as a tub from walmart to 600 dollar custom made PVC or ABS plastic enclosure. They're usually not that much for the smaller species though.

EasternGirl · 12-10-11, 10:10 PM

Hmm...no one has ever said anything about glass being a problem for garters...why is it such a problem for pythons?

jarich · 12-10-11, 11:12 PM

Ha! Thats a very succinct opinion, Mykee. Since we dont know each other at all, I'll assume that it comes from our mutual respect of Aaron's knowledge and is not a reflection on me at all.

First of all, let me say again that I am just thinking out loud here, and not saying that you are somehow not providing an enclosure that is good enough. I know you to be a very responsible and caring keeper, Aaron. Also, I think it should be stated that for any new keepers reading this thread, the most important thing is getting the proper environmental conditions met. What we are talking about are behavioural considerations that should ONLY be considered once you have a good environment created with all temps, humidity, feeding considerations, etc.

Okay, back to the discussion! I think the first thing to consider here is that it has become generally accepted knowledge in the scientific community that captive animals are understimulated. It is also fast becoming prevalent that we have greatly underestimated the development of reptile brains. As a result I think it is easy to extend the idea of understimulation to reptiles. Though there are not many studies, those done on lizards and snakes have shown that in barren captive environments these animals have long periods of remaining motionless in their waking hours. Even something as simple as spatial diversity within their enclosures yielded higher activity and reduced basking times.

As you mentioned Aaron, this does seem species specific, however I dont think this should mean it is not considered. Ball pythons in the wild seek out abandoned termite mounds, rodent burrows and hollowed out logs primarily for resting. However, I do not agree that they would only come out for water. They are frequently seen basking out in the open, even though they are crepuscular. These snakes are mostly an invasive species now. They follow humans as they clear land for agriculture, mostly because that means there are high populations of rodents, their main food source. What that means is that they frequent open spaces like fields and savannas in their waking hours.

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I think we should start to look beyond the basics of husbandry. Once we have met all their basic needs, what more can be done to increase their quality of life? Stimulation via enrichment of their environment is a simple thing to do, and studies are increasingly showing that this has real effect.

**millertime89** · 12-10-11, 11:35 PM

they can hit like freight trains. A 6 foot blood can hit as hard as a 10+ foot retic, check out some retic feeding vids to get an idea. It can be even worse on cage aggressive one or one in breeding mode.

**Aaron_S** · 12-11-11, 06:01 PM

Jarich, I ask for any links where I might find these studies done? I would think their would be a lot more conversation in regards to this if this was to be true.

I would very much like to read these studies.

I'm going to stick with the species specific topic because to talk about all reptiles, or even just snakes or boids on a whole would be rather difficult to maintain a coherent discussion.

I don't necessarily believe that ball pythons require or need any sort of enrichment. I relate enrichment to other animals, with a known higher brain function such as primates. Who actually need it to survive as they'd go crazy without something to do. I don't believe this to to be the case with ball pythons.

I would agree that at the very least, I'd rather see a larger, more elaborate enclosure act as a stimulant than for someone to increase handling their pythons. I had a discussion with another member on the forums and they have even said that since they have become more hands-off due to the rest of their life that they find their snakes are doing better!

red ink · 12-11-11, 06:44 PM

The secret to snake keeping (what ever the species)

Correct temps, adequate humidity, food and water, a secure hide (perches if arboreal) in an appropriate sized enclosure (whatever that is tub, room, plastic enclosure, glass, bird cage, outdoor pit)... not really rocket surgery.

The rest as enclosure enrichment or fancy vivariums/enclosures are for the keepers benefit not the snakes really as the bases are covered.

**lady_bug87** · 12-12-11, 08:18 AM

quick off topic question

for those that use tubs/ rack system do you provide a photo period? and if so, how? and if not why not? I thought a photo period was necessary for BPs

mykee · 12-12-11, 11:03 AM

I personally keep my ball pythons in transluscent bins in a rack and I have both a window and a simple ceiling light one a 12/12 cycle. Ball pythons, unike many other species, do not require a strict light cycle.