Goanna Ranch

[Jeff_Favelle]

Is mutliclutching a factor of captivity only - an adaptation to this different environment?

Would that be a "Lamarkian" trait and quite refuted by modern biology?

[mbayless]

Hi Jeff,

Hahaha - oooh, I like the way you put that...nice question. Although one does not read much on organic evolution nowadays, much of what Jean LaMarck has merit, and thats cool - some of those French scientists were really good at Science and scientific though process - like Geoffrey St.-Hilaire, and his son too.

Anyways, back to monitors: I dont think the oviducts of Varanus are in a atrophied condition in the wild, but egg clutch size does have a relationship with how much protein they ingest and how many eggs are viable, as case studies with V. albigularis have shown (Philipp, 1995, 1997; Secor, 1996). Some people have said keep feeding them, and they pop eggs out like a gumball machine - but when African varanids cycle, they slow way down and food intake diminishes and then they do not feed = you should not treat all monitors the same, as they are not the same physiologically, and to do so can be detrimental to their health/lives via visceral gout, hepatic failure, renal failure, and impaction.

Animals can adapt only so much. Is multi-clutching a adaptation to a new envrionment and perameters? maybe....or is it a reaction to stress? maybe....

markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

Interesting.... adaptation, or reaction? More work needs to be done by the field guys.

[SHvar]

"and to do so can be detrimental to their health/lives via visceral gout, hepatic failure, renal failure, and impaction. "

Seem to stem from a few common problems with many peoples husbandry with almost any reptile, mainly lizards. The hepatic lipidosis, visceral gout etc seem to always be found in monitors that are suddenly fasting and mobilizing their fat reserves, usually in addition to some other physical problem. Renal failure, thats a common one, I had one go that way to once, it was dehydration from long term improper caging, bad substrate choices, etc. That also seems to be the biggest killer of monitors in captivity along with RI. Impaction, thats another one that follows monitors kept too cool for too long with no option to warm up when they need to, and are extremely obese, dehydrated, and then as other maladies, the impaction follows. This was straight from discussing this with a few herp vets as well seeing this with many keepers, and others that have ran into it.
Ive noticed when Sobek filled up with eggs she ate, but very little, and not very often, like once every 1.5 weeks a small meal. Of course there were a few more problems but she would have eaten more with out those problems at that time.

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,
As you have clearly pointed out by example, diet and temperature are directly related to disease - or am I seeing this wrong? Inappropriate diet and/or thermal gradient and organ failure occurs = could it be that V. albigularis are not acustomed/designed for rodent prey? Could it be they have too much fat content in them for proper metabolism (= catablism)?? Jeff Lemm brought this up years ago - 1996 if I recall - and I still think he right on the mark with that assessment - rodents and African (polydaedalus) do not go together. As apposed to say V. bengelensis and rodents/lizard diet....did you find out why your lizard died yet? I am curious to know....

cheers,
mbayless

[crocdoc]

so, let me get this right...

Scenario one:

Carpet pythons are able to double clutch in captivity (two clutches in one year).

There are numerous studies of wild populations, and most breed once a year at most, some subspecies once every two years, because wild conditions don't seem to allow them to double clutch.

That seems to be widely accepted.

Scenario two:

Monitors multiclutch in captivity.

So far, all studies of wild populations have shown that they do not have more than one clutch a year in the wild.

You guys refuse to accept that.

Why accept scenario one but not two?

rsg, SteeveB, SHvar and all. Regarding the FR bashing... why is it that none of you mind his aggression towards others on all other forums, don't mind that he avoids all logical discussion and would rather go for the personal attack, don't seem bothered by his constant bashing of science and scientists, yet as soon as someone else suggests that these behaviours may not be acceptable you take offence at this so-called 'FR bashing'? Are we not being a bit blind here?

rsg - FR has made a mention of 'MS' in almost every single post in the past few months, despite the fact that the person he is referring to and other MSes (such as myself) have not posted on either of his forums in many months, yet you think we are obsessed? You and I have no issues with each other, but you have to admit that you are hardly an unbiased judge when it comes to matters FR.

SHvar, regarding the 'never multiclutching' quote, I haven't asked for names, just an actual quote or link to a post. I haven't seen anyone deny that monitors multiclutch, just that they don't multiclutch in the wild. You said you had the posts on CD.

And as far as monitors multiclutching in the wild, we can discuss the 'wherefores, hows, whys and what ifs' all we want but two facts remain.

1. there has yet to be any evidence of them doing this in the wild
2. if someone should happen to find evidence of one or two individuals multiclutching at some point in the future, it doesn't change anyone's world view of what monitors 'do'. ie it would still be the exception, not the rule.

I am still away from my computer (using someone elses at the moment) so I may not be able to add to this thread for a while.

[mbayless]

An interesting observation I have made re: multi-clutching in African Varanus: in the 4 scenarios I have detailed reports about, all were 'group scenarios', with 2.1, 3.1, 4.5 etc all living together, with the same female depositing two clutches of eggs w/in 50 days time of one another... a reaction to stress with so many conspecifics present? As all of us know, captivity is an unnatural condition, but natural behaviors are seen - but does that include multi-clutching?
markb

[rsg]

The only reason for this post is because I like and respect you Doc, hopefully we can grab a few beers next time you are out.

Frank is my friend and I have spoken to him about his demeanor, but he is who he is. The main reason I found this thread funny was all the grandstanding about avoiding KS to get away from this crap, then the crap starts here and he's not even on this forum. Ah well.

You and I know monitors multiclutch in captivity because we have done it. Before your time on the KS forum, Mr. Bayless used to jump up and down that the temps we kept our monitors at and the food we fed them were going to kill them. He and his buddies also used to claim monitors absolutely could not multiclutch and that we were all liars. I don't have the time nor patience to go looking through the archives to find old posts, but I'm sure they are there if you get bored sometime.

Do monitors multi clutch in the wild? Hell if I know. Could they if conditions supported it? I don't see why not. Do I care? Absolutely not, and that's mostly why I stay away from the MS vs. AS crap.

Doc, if you want to continue this discussion further please e mail me. I'd like to hear if you've had anymore experience hatching dented eggs.

The rest of you can go ahead and pick this post apart without me.

Safe travels Doc.

[mbayless]

rsg,
I did not call you all liars - I said I did not believe you - there is a difference. NOBODY could/would give me detailed breeding info on it - and they still don't - I do have some detailed reports of multiclutching from African species, but the more info on it the better, but never forth-coming...so whether you care about why it happens or not I could care less, but I am curious about it, and still want to learn how/why it works...don't you?
mbayless

[Jeff_Favelle]

Carpet pythons are able to double clutch in captivity (two clutches in one year).

Has that been actually proven? And if a Carpet lays eggs in April 21st, 2004, and then lays the next year on April 20th, 2005, is that considered a "multi-clutch"?

[mbayless]

Good Question Jeff - I am not even sure the term is clearly defined anywhere - and without a clear definition, each person could/would believe it to be different to them - is there a clear definition somewhere? I always thought it meant within a month or two?
markb

[kap10cavy]

I have never hatched a monitor eggs. I don't own carpets so will turtles work?
I was once told that box turtles only lay eggs once a year.
I have three box turtles, 2 males and a female. I get eggs three times a year. They are kept outside in a huge pen with water, sand piles, dirt piles and natural vegatation.
I bring them inside during the winter. I get 3 cltuches of 3 to 5 eggs from the girl a year. Two outside, and one inside.
Why? I don't know.

Scott

[mbayless]

That is exactly what I am talking about Scott...I don't see why turtles cant be in the same venue at monitors or snakes = all reptiles.

markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

I was once told that box turtles only lay eggs once a year.

By a scientist or by breeders who multi-clutch them in captivity?

I don't see how Pythons can double clutch, given the long incubation time. All Pythons maternally-incubate their eggs, so that adds 2 months to the already 2-month gravidity period. So its 4 months MINIMUM in between clutch, no question. Therefore, NO multiclutch.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Same here Mark. That's how I've always heard it defined.