Damn Laws!!!! Hate it!!!!

[Bryce Masuk]

maybe canada needs a huge swarm of mice and rats to realize how much good snakes actually do too bad we dont have many types of snakes to eat em up

[tHeGiNo]

Give me ONE good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to have a corn snake in London, and I will shut up.

[tHeGiNo]

The problem is, nobody wants to do anything about the laws until they ban something in which they own, and love, how fair is it if someone has been collecting herps for the majority of their lives, then in a matter of minutes its all taken away from them.

[jpaulson]

I am going under the impression that the REASON they say 2 feet, is to PREVENT a large snake, be it a boid, a hot, or a python, from getting that large and causing FUTURE harm or fear. In most states, it is a violation to house your large snake in a window, that would be visible to the general public. OK, so now someone is telling me where I can and cannot house a snake in my OWN home? But, it is our responsibility as keepers to keep the public as calm as possible. Whether we like it or not, most people have a fear of snakes, or reptiles for that fact. Now, I could house my snakes in the front window, and basically say "screw the laws"...but, by doing that, I am now hurting EVERYONE'S priviledge, be it a small part, at keeping reptiles.

As far as the pen comment, no, we should not ban pens. I never said we should ban reptiles either. But, if enough people DO go out and start stabbing people with pens, do you not think that they would ban them? (For the record, stabbing someone with a pen is considered using a deadly weapon, should it kill.) I was saying that if people CONTINUE to violate the laws, then EVENTUALLY a permanent ban could go into place. Those that break these laws give these lobbyists more power behind them.

Marisa, I am sure you are well aware that many reptiles carry salmonella. Also, consider that ANY snake, be it a corn snake or a childrens python, is still a WILD ANIMAL and therefore, we will never be able to predict 100% what they will do. So, your corn snake, should it be aggressive and carry salmonella, could very easily wreak havoc on Toronto. Likelyhood, slim. Chances, slim. Reality, YES!!

True, regulations will never stop. But, that is also because some peoples' stupidity will never stop, either. Why must we put "non-edible" on septic pumping trucks? Why must we put "do not consume" on a container of rat poison? For God's sake, they are trying to sue McDonalds for causing someone's obesity!! That is insane!! But, the reality is that these laws and regulations are put in place because someone, somewhere, has tried to do these things. Truly unbelievable, yet they happen!! Regulations will not end, not because people are put off by the ones that keep adding them, but because of the select few idiots out there that continue to push the "bar".

Everyone keeps saying "I am resonsible, who has the right to tell ME how to keep my snakes?" My argument is not with any of you, it is towards the idiots that continuously break the simple, common sense rules, therefore forcing the lawmakers to make things strict.

If the "bad apples" continue to violate these laws, then it COULD lead to a complete ban. At that point, who are you going to blame? The lawmakers for attempting to make things safer, or the bad apples that forced them into making that ban?

FYI, Gino, certain dogs ARE banned in certain cities. Remember someone making a comment about "anti-pitbull" regulations? And why do you suppose that this happened? Because a select few thought it would be cute to train thier dog to attack. People DIED!! Kids have DIED!! So how many people have to die or get injured before people take these laws seriously?

In many areas, a busy intersection will only get a traffic light when a certain number of deaths have occured there. Most people are good drivers--but there are obviously a few "bad apples" that caused those deaths.

[marisa]

O.k. I get your point. The idiots who break the laws are pushing the bar for the rest of us.

But when does it become THE IDIOTS who MAKE the laws need to stop? Just because the law is made is it right?

No.

And frankly, unless my cornsnake got loose in toronto and someone ate his feces, no havoc could be brought. And I am sorry but lots of local animals also carry nasty things. I guess we should go out and get rid of them because of that one stupid person who is going to ingest their fecees. ????

That makes no sense.

If the laws make no sense, and the people making them constantly refuse to listen, I am supposed to sit back and say "well they are the lawmakers!" Wrong. I will not.

And if it means breaking a law that makes no sense in the first place, so be it.

And yes the laws are there to prevent larger snakes. But if the person making the law was informed, it could instead state "No snakes allowed whos adult size can surpass 8ft" or some such. But because they can't and won't make this simple change I am supposed to get rid of my snakes to protect the stupid people who have burms and retics? I am supposed to get rid of my snakes because the person who made the law didn't word it in a more informed manner?

Yeah, right. Sorry I just don't understand the logic of following laws that clearly make no factual sense because 1 out of 20 people might be a total idiot, and because the lawmaker knew nothing about what they were doing.

Marisa

[marisa]

Look the bottom line is I understand your points, and they are valid.

But I am not giving up something I enjoy because someone else is afriad of it. Period. If it means keeping them in secret, ok.

But I do get what you are saying.

I just strongly believe that if what *I* am doing is not bothering anyone, hurting anyone or killing anyone, then I am doing it. Period.

Marisa

[tHeGiNo]

Alright, now I have nothing to argue as everything you said is very true. However you said if people continuously stabbed people with pens, they would ban it. I haven't heard of many snakes bites, never mind deaths, so that logic would not apply to this. However you made very valid points. Yes, it is very unfortunate that the irrisponsible have to ruin it for us all.

(For the record, stabbing someone with a pen is considered using a deadly weapon, should it kill.)

Exactly, as is if your dog kills someone, you go to jail for murder. That is what they should do, dont ban them all together, require permits such as guns. As far as the pen statement, howmany people have been shot and killed yet they still allow guns with permits. Again, very valid points. I understand you fully now. One more thing, chicken and many other things carry samonella, they aren't banned. Please note I am not arguing against you, as you are stating facts, that is all I am doing as well. The thing is, all the statements you say about snakes are true, and that IS the reason they ban snakes. The thing is, SNAKES ARENT THE ONLY ONES WHO POSE THESE GIVEN THREATS. That is what angers me, the real reason behind the law is that they see no importance or need for snakes, the reasons you give, which they use, are a bunch of crap they use as an excuse.

[Kathy]

One more thing, chicken and many other things carry samonella, they aren't banned.

Chickens and other farm animals are prohibited to be kept in residential areas. Unless you live on a farm or something, you cant keep them, especially if you live in a condo or appartment building downtown someplace

[jpaulson]

Marissa, in my opinion, just about ALL the general public, including the lawmakers, are clueless as to the proper and resonsible care of reptiles. We can educate all we can, but this is a battle that began with Adam, and will continue well into the future. I realized this problem when I got into reptiles, and knowingly chose to accept it. So the obvious question we should now ask is how do we change it? How do we change thier thinking? How do we convince them that reptiles mean to us what dogs and cats mean to them? I'm not sure I have the correct answer, but I can tell you what is NOT the answer--having a handful of jerks out there abusing thier priviledge of ownership of these magnificant creatures. That, in turn, leads to more fear, more mis-conceptions, and more ignorance. You can't blame the lawmakers for all of this, and I know you are not. Keep in mind, though, that the lawmakers answer to the general public. If most of the general public is scared to death of snakes, how popular will that lawmaker be at next elections? Not saying it is right, but it is valid. Lemme give you an example, one that you touched on earlier. I am a smoker, yet 75% of americans do not smoke. Sure, I feel shunted at times, but I accept it. For one, it is a hazard to others, and I respect and agree with that. Do I blame the lawmakers for banning smoking in just about every public place now? No, because I realize that it is all a numbers game, and I am at the short end. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to compare apples to apples with snakes. There is a difference. My point is, they have to answer to the majority. In a democracy, the majority wins.

Gino, very valid points you are making as well, and I commend and respect that. I DO understand your points as well. At some point, people just gotta stop and use a little common sense.

Thank you, guys, for your opinions and comments. I guess at some point people just need to agree to disagree.

[Herp guy]

In the news you never hear "man is bitten by snake ,calls 911" or "man acccisentally eats snake feces, gets salmonelle , he died 9:30 yesterday

[tHeGiNo]

Yes exactly, very good point and comparison. However, fear of something that should not be feared is no reason to ban something, that would be like banning a scary movie lol however I realize there IS a potential, a slim one in most cases, for injury caused by a snake. And the smoking thing, THAT is a fair law as it definitely causes harm to the general public. Your allowed to smoke whenever and whereever in your own home, why can't it be the same with snakes. Again, I realize they can escape, all I am saying is the laws are not fair, and there is no reason for the majority of them. Toronto is very fair, with a limit of three metres. I still think if you wanted to hold something bigger, you should be allowed as long as you have a permit and have anti-escape for the large guys.

[tHeGiNo]

And Kathy, It doesn't necessarily have to be live to carry samonella.

[jpaulson]

Herp guy, If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound? Just because you never hear it, does not mean that it didn't happen or that it could not happen.

And Gino, smoking is socially acceptable--unfortunately, having reptiles as pets is not. Sad, but true.

[jpaulson]

Marissa,

Just an FYI, although rare, salmonella can be passed through other methods besides the consumption of feces. If a reptile has salmonella and defecates, then it can be transmitted through a variety of ways. If the infected feces touches the reptile, and someone handles the reptile, it can be transmitted that way. Also, it can be found in the enclosure itself, as that is where the animal usually defecates. Proper handwashing after handling any reptile is necessary. And just another good reason to throughly clean and disinfect a cage after the animal defecates.

[marisa]

I obviously know that. I was speaking of it in context of someones snake getting loose and infecting someone with salmonella. I am well aware of how it is transmitted as I have an iguana as well.

So the cage factor doesn't matter in this discussion as how would a loose snakes cage in my home hurt the public? It wouldn't. And unless a person was someone infected by a loose reptiles feces however that could happen, a cornsnake in toronto can't really be a cause to ban all snakes over 2 feet.

Thanks goodness Toronto in fact has SENSIBLE laws which only outlaw the species which reach a dangerous length.

Marisa