Hognose venom "debate" over.

[jarich]

Thank you SAW for posting a response again, they were all informative and well thought out. It's interesting especially as I've never thought of venom as a definition based on function rather than form. I look forward to reading your book when I have the time. Thank you again.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating..

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?.

Generally when it comes to being allergic to stings and bites, one would need to be exposed to the substance before hand. If you get stung by a bee for the first time, you will not have an allergic reaction. However, any subsequent stings can result in allergic reaction.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.

I am a parent and I allow my daughter to handle the hognose snakes, supervised ofcorse. She has been bitten twice. Again, I do not allow the snakes to hold on for too long. The two times she was bitten the snake was take off quickly. She also never suffered anything more than a few puncture. Hognose snakes are completely harmless. They have not cause any systemic problems. It is a localized reaction.

SAW,
Sorry if my post somehow offended you but seriously, I will be listening to BGF for the simple fact that he is in the field and is actually studying venom and not getting his information from a textbook.

The book you released. Is it up to date original work that you have done or was the information sited from other literature?

[jaleely]

SAW I actually appreciate you posts. My underlying issue with it was that I felt you were using the opportunity to promote a book of yours.

The crux of the problem is that people don't differentiate between the saliva reactions, and the exsistence and possible use of the Duvernoy's glad and it's secretions. You can say humans have the same potential at a lower severity as a hognose snake, in regards to the saliva, but the facts are they do possess the Duvernoy's gland, and weather it's only used as they are swallowing prey.

Perhaps if there was a diagram on where and how they excrete the venom from the glad, rather than the definition of the word venom. Is it not that the venom mixes with the saliva and gets into the wound? I feel like you addressed that, but i may have lost it in translation.

Anyway, to get back to me (it is, always about me, i hope you all keep that in mind with my future posts
I can understand not compressing the wound, especially seeing as the type of wound it was. But, at some point it may have required draining, or what i did, which was slight compression. Honestly the pressure was extreme. I've had wounds, surgeries, etc., and that was the worst swelling.
As an update, my fingers have gone down, you can see the bones in my wrist again (I have prominent carpal bumps, and you can actually see it on my wrist again)...however the finger with the bite on it...though the bite is not sore at all, and swelling is gone...the whole tip of that finger is still tender, and "weird" due to capillary damage from how full the swelling was. That is the main spot I chose to compress, and I do honestly feel it would have been worse if i hadn't.
The back of my hand is still stragely swollen, and the muscles there are sore and tender as well. Below the furthist knucles i have seen a couple red blotches that make me think the cappilaries may have been damaged there as well.

Anyway, As Gregg said, overall hognose snake bites keep a localized reaction that should not become too harmful, however if you cannot get them OFF of you, clearly the damage can be more severe *lol*
Also, as there is a venom involved, regardless of the saliva, i think sensitivity to the venom becomes more prominent, so Aaron is right here. My first bite, was very short, however i did get swelling, and a little liquid coming from the wound.

[jaleely]

Some more photos:

Here is my hognose the first time he bit me...he is twice that size now!


her is how i got him off of me lol


he held on anyway, this time.

Here is a photo i took right after the bite (different angle than the previous ones obviously)
You can see how far the pointy finger is swollen.

This photo here really shows the distortion, in my opinion, and where i get that it was quite painful to be that swollen!


Here is another "end" photo...this is 24 hours later. It did actually swell more up my wrist, even after this photo was taken. That little knob on my wrist was completely invisible by the end of the day.

[jaleely]

Here is my hand right now.






Oh, and after all the drama was over....here is how rewarded the little monster in question.

He was very happy to have this fish *rolls eyes* i never would have thought he would have wanted fish, but when i put him back he looked all around for the food he'd lost (my hand) and so i gave him one, and he gobbled it down! little jerk *lol*

[MDT]

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

[kernel]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating.

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.

That's right we don't know, but as someone already pointed out, you not going to have an allergic reaction the first time. It will be the second or third time before you have one and it will be worse every time.

Your right, I'm not a parent, I'm 17, but that doesn't change the fact I can't see a reaction like her's killing a kid or even a baby. One swollen hand equals a leg or arm on a baby. I may be wrong as I'm not a doctor, but still I can't see it happening.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by kernel

That's right we don't know, but as someone already pointed out, you not going to have an allergic reaction the first time. It will be the second or third time before you have one and it will be worse every time.

Your right, I'm not a parent, I'm 17, but that doesn't change the fact I can't see a reaction like her's killing a kid or even a baby. One swollen hand equals a leg or arm on a baby. I may be wrong as I'm not a doctor, but still I can't see it happening.

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

[Rogue628]

Originally Posted by MDT

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

Thank you for bringing your clinical experience and knowledge to the thread. I do hope to see you post a little more often as I believe you have alot you can contribute to the forum as well.

Jaleely, I'm glad to see your hand has much improved!

[jaleely]

thanks guys!!!
and matt, i enjoyed your post. nothing bad to say here.

You actually reminded me that since i did go to the doctor they took my blood pressure, and my temperature.
I was having a bit of stress that day (specifically about going to the doctor and how much it might cost if they wanted to try to do some radical treatment or something)...but of course they didn't, and had no clue...which is more what i expected.
Anyway...I normally run a temperature that is lower than most, at 97.6. I was running at 98.8...so that is a little high for me (this was taken about 30 hours after the bite) and they did say my blood pressure was a little low...but nothing to worry about. I only remember the bottom number of 67...i think it was like 117 over 67..which normal is what, 120/70 or something?

Had to say if it was related since it's still within normal ranges.

Aaron, you can't leave the thread!! This is worse than when mykee almost got banned! *lol*
Seriously though bud, i didn't even know about the vine snake thing so it's made me look it up. You know i take it seriously, and whether anyone thinks it was a bad reaction, or a mild one, happened because i'd been bitten before, or because it was a long bite, or whatever...regardless, I plan to treat my silly hognose snakes with a bit more respect just because all snakes need to be...and some more than others. I don't particularly want to have to go through that again, so lesson learned that hognose bites can cause even a slight annoyance to the skin that is a big annoyance for ME *lol*

[kernel]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

I won't say it's impossible for that to happen with hognose, but I highly doubt it. Besides, you would have to let it chew on you extended period of time, so if you get them off immediately you won't run into problems. I have been bit 2 times by mine, but I get her off immediately both times and nothing happened.

Being that she has bit me a couple times (feeding response BTW), I do give her more respect, especially since she's getting close to the size where she could swallow my finger.

I will respect your wish to not debate about this anymore, so unless you wish to do so again, this is the last you will hear about this from me.

[jaleely]

All I'll add kernel is that i never imagined my hoggie would get that stuck in my flesh, especially right away. I'm glad to see you said you have more respect for yours...i know i have more for mine.
I was pretty shocked how stuck he was on my finger, actually. Husband said he could hear the "pop" when we finally got his jaws pushed forward and i could roll my finger out *lol* i know i felt it alright.
He just happened to bite my fleshy finger at the right angle, and that was it. Not only was he stubborn about letting go, but he actually couldn't move much wider to pull off.

I guess some people just keep saying "you'd have to let'em chew for a long time" and "just get them off immidiately" and it's like, yeah, i TRIED *lol* sometimes **** happens, and for that instance there is no way i actually could have gotten him off by myself without hurting him. I'm not saying people are saying specifically to me "you should have just gotten him off quicker"...but even if they are...*shrug*
It is what it is, and for the position he bit me, it was difficult to remove him, especially since he didn't want to...and it took time.

I guess i think saying "just remove them quickly" is kind of a cop-out. Now, i'm not trying to be offensive...but it only takes once in a strange circumstance and giant hand is what you get for it. Sometimes it's not as simple as "just remove them quickly" lol I'm glad it has been for some of you. I hope if it ever happens again (which i'm going to try and make sure it doesn't) it's fast like the first time, too. Especially with animals though, i guess i'm saying you can't count on it always being the easiest solution or circumstance.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

Aaron, I am not sure where you are getting your info from but there are no known fatalities from a vine snake bite. Do you have any literature on the bite case?

Secondly, boomslangs have been know to deliver very serious bites that can cause death since the early 1900's. In 1957 famous herpetologist Karl Patterson Schmidt was the first westerner to die from a boomslang bite. Boomslangs have very potent venom. Hognose snakes do not. Boonslangs have a well developed delivery system, hognose do not.

For you to put hognose snakes in the same catagory as boomslangs is just rediculous.

[kernel]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Aaron, I am not sure where you are getting your info from but there are no known fatalities from a vine snake bite. Do you have any literature on the bite case?

Secondly, boomslangs have been know to deliver very serious bites that can cause death since the early 1900's. In 1957 famous herpetologist Karl Patterson Schmidt was the first westerner to die from a boomslang bite. Boomslangs have very potent venom. Hognose snakes do not. Boonslangs have a well developed delivery system, hognose do not.

For you to put hognose snakes in the same catagory as boomslangs is just rediculous.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I didn't have anything to back that up, so I just didn't say anything

[kernel]

Originally Posted by jaleely

All I'll add kernel is that i never imagined my hoggie would get that stuck in my flesh, especially right away. I'm glad to see you said you have more respect for yours...i know i have more for mine.
I was pretty shocked how stuck he was on my finger, actually. Husband said he could hear the "pop" when we finally got his jaws pushed forward and i could roll my finger out *lol* i know i felt it alright.
He just happened to bite my fleshy finger at the right angle, and that was it. Not only was he stubborn about letting go, but he actually couldn't move much wider to pull off.

I guess some people just keep saying "you'd have to let'em chew for a long time" and "just get them off immidiately" and it's like, yeah, i TRIED *lol* sometimes **** happens, and for that instance there is no way i actually could have gotten him off by myself without hurting him. I'm not saying people are saying specifically to me "you should have just gotten him off quicker"...but even if they are...*shrug*
It is what it is, and for the position he bit me, it was difficult to remove him, especially since he didn't want to...and it took time.

I guess i think saying "just remove them quickly" is kind of a cop-out. Now, i'm not trying to be offensive...but it only takes once in a strange circumstance and giant hand is what you get for it. Sometimes it's not as simple as "just remove them quickly" lol I'm glad it has been for some of you. I hope if it ever happens again (which i'm going to try and make sure it doesn't) it's fast like the first time, too. Especially with animals though, i guess i'm saying you can't count on it always being the easiest solution or circumstance.

I don't remember who said it, but if it happens again, use their rostral (spelling?) scale as a leverage point, pull back on it and roll your finger out. I haven't tried that method yet (hopefully I won't have to), but if/when it happens, I'm going to try it.