Cat food for dubia

[stephanbakir]

Thanks a ton Jarich.

[candyraver69]

Originally Posted by jarich

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

Great information. I didn't stop to think about the preservatives. About the protein though, I am going to respectfully disagree. There is a fantastic manual view-able online for free that discusses nutrition in detail, but still there is room for debate as you must consider the difference between 2 roaches with normal diets vs a gutload roach with enough protein in its gut to equal the same protein content. What would the group of two roaches provide that the single roach didn't? Everything that wasn't in the gut would be doubled. So that is what must be considered. What I am talking about isn't increasing protein intake, because to get more protein the animal can just eat more, but increasing the efficiency of getting that protein. Merck Veterinary Manual

So I guess depending what your take on the protein situation is, you might want to consider finding a cat food with less or certain preservatives? Not to say it makes it right because one person does it so everybody should, but think about what kind of diet rodents you feed your snakes have. I can guarantee there are preservatives in most rodent's diets that you feed your snakes. Not many feeder breeders feed their rats/mice anything besides lab blocks, let alone a completely fresh diet.

Certainly if you don't feed cat/dog food you need to feed a balanced fresh diet to your roaches. If you always feed them lettuce or always feed the oranges... the nutrition content is going to plummet. Cat food is convenient because it provides a mix of things in one item. If you are going to do the more natural approach you will need to plan the roaches diet like you would for an iguana, carefully selecting a variety of foods that together contain the needed vitamins, minerals, proteins, etc.

[jarich]

I see where your logic is coming from Candyraver, but it doesnt really work for the specific example. That reference you quoted actually says it outright. If you look in the section marked 'Nutritional Requirements' it states, "Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards...Feeding high protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3" It goes on to state that the only common type of protein deficiency is in herbivorous reptiles due to the "salad diets" that so many keepers give them.

Remember, when it comes to protein, there will never be a deficiency if your animal is eating a carnivorous diet. A roach with out any gutloading is still around 50% protein! Its not even about efficiency, as there is so much protein in roaches that lizards will excrete the excess. The more common problem is too much protein. Taking all that extra protein out of the body is hard on the organs. The other thing to consider is that when it comes to reptiles, you dont want to more efficiently give them extra calories (which is also what that extra protein is). The problem with captive animals is normally that they are too fat, so giving them more protein is not a great idea in my opinion.

As to their diet, yes I do plan the roaches diet like all my other animals (actually more now that I think about it!) I have them on a very natural and balanced diet. I feed them green beans, kale, carrots, dried apricots, and raisins, and for dry food I feed them oats and barley. You are absolutely right about the rodents, I know that most breeders dont feed them very high quality stuff. Thats the biggest reason I have been contemplating breeding rats again. Im hoping to do so by the start of the year.

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph when you said, "catfood is convenient". It is at that, and like I said before, I dont think that feeding your roaches cat or dog food is by any means going to kill your lizard. However, I also dont think that its the best or most nutritional diet though, and like all things relating to our animals, I think that what is best and most nutritious should be the goal.

[candyraver69]

Originally Posted by jarich

I see where your logic is coming from Candyraver, but it doesnt really work for the specific example. That reference you quoted actually says it outright. If you look in the section marked 'Nutritional Requirements' it states, "Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards...Feeding high protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3"

There is a HUGE difference between feeding the prey item cat food and feeding your reptile cat food directly. Read the text, especially surrounding that quote, and you will see it was clearly talking about people feeding their reptiles cat food. I would hope that everyone in this thread knows not to feed their lizards cat food. Anyways, other than that, I think we've both made our respective points.

[candyraver69]

And I feel it's important to point out also to those not reading the link I sent the part you omitted from the quote because out of context that is a bit different. Here is the whole paragraph to clarify:

"Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards when excessive meat products are fed rather than whole animals. Feeding excessive amounts of high-protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3. Many nutritionists recommend not feeding cat foods to reptiles. Dog food, especially low-fat varieties, can be used sparingly as part of a complete and balanced diet in both carnivores and omnivores. The overuse of high-protein diets prepared for carnivores has been incriminated in causing disease in tortoises and iguanas."

*note that iguanas and tortoises are vegetarian, so what dummy is feeding them carnivore food I don't know, but it causes problems (surprising, I know)

[jarich]

Ha! I originally left all those parts in, but then took some of them out for effect. So good on you for calling me on it! Its not a great technique and I apologize. But back to the discussion.

We agree on something, and its a good first step. You stated that you know that it is not good to feed a reptile cat food directly. However, you then go on to say that there is a huge difference between feeding it to prey animals and feeding it directly. My question is, what information do you have to back that up? First lets look at what we were talking about specifically - gutloading. By its very definition this is the act of feeding a prey item a certain food and then feeding that prey item to a reptile before it has the chance to digest what is in its gut. So in the case of gutloading with cat food, there would be, in fact, almost no difference between feeding it to the prey item or feeding it directly. Undigested cat food is still just cat food. Second, if you are aware that cat food is a bad food item for reptiles then what would make you want to use it for the prey that they directly eat? Even when digested, the same things that are wrong with cat food will be passed along via the prey item. When it comes to bugs, the old saying "You are what you eat" is really pretty true. Third, what is the motivation for feeding them cat food or defending that position? Again its kind of like the rodent/invertebrate argument with monitors. Sure you could feed them that, no it wont kill them. But why, if you know there are better, more natural things to feed them? Especially when there are so many better items available for just as cheap a price, that can be fed to them. The only answer, once again, is convenience to the keeper. And that becomes a thin argument very quickly. Responsibility overrides convenience every time as a keeper.

I think we all agree that its good to do the once over in all our reptile enclosures each day, taking out any excrement, debris, etc from their environment. If convenience is the only argument, then again, why not just add your roach enclosure to this daily ritual? It only takes a few minutes more, and if the advantage is a healthier reptile then Im not sure if there is much reason for the debate.

[stephanbakir]

God this topic went from great to 6 different flavours of awesome.

[candyraver69]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ha! I originally left all those parts in, but then took some of them out for effect. So good on you for calling me on it! Its not a great technique and I apologize. But back to the discussion.

We agree on something, and its a good first step. You stated that you know that it is not good to feed a reptile cat food directly. However, you then go on to say that there is a huge difference between feeding it to prey animals and feeding it directly. My question is, what information do you have to back that up? First lets look at what we were talking about specifically - gutloading. By its very definition this is the act of feeding a prey item a certain food and then feeding that prey item to a reptile before it has the chance to digest what is in its gut. So in the case of gutloading with cat food, there would be, in fact, almost no difference between feeding it to the prey item or feeding it directly. Undigested cat food is still just cat food. Second, if you are aware that cat food is a bad food item for reptiles then what would make you want to use it for the prey that they directly eat? Even when digested, the same things that are wrong with cat food will be passed along via the prey item. When it comes to bugs, the old saying "You are what you eat" is really pretty true. Third, what is the motivation for feeding them cat food or defending that position? Again its kind of like the rodent/invertebrate argument with monitors. Sure you could feed them that, no it wont kill them. But why, if you know there are better, more natural things to feed them? Especially when there are so many better items available for just as cheap a price, that can be fed to them. The only answer, once again, is convenience to the keeper. And that becomes a thin argument very quickly. Responsibility overrides convenience every time as a keeper.

I think we all agree that its good to do the once over in all our reptile enclosures each day, taking out any excrement, debris, etc from their environment. If convenience is the only argument, then again, why not just add your roach enclosure to this daily ritual? It only takes a few minutes more, and if the advantage is a healthier reptile then Im not sure if there is much reason for the debate.

The difference between gutloading and feeding cat food directly to your reptile is that just the gut is full of the cat food, and you are still getting the nutritional content of the rest of the prey animal. It's the difference between having a pizza with pineapples on top and just eating a pineapple. Good enough analogy? Sure the reptile is getting some catfood, but in a package deal. I don't think cat food is "bad" for reptiles, just in pure form not balanced as eating the prey item... although as we agreed, some preservatives in some brands very much could be bad. With your third argument, I'm not arguing that feeding your roach a balanced diet would be the ideal situation, but at what cost? You have to weigh the benefit against the cost. And again, just feeding the roaches fresh food will nilly is NOT a balanced diet, and I think would be sub-par to cat food.

After all, is it healthier for a person to eat a nasty prepared frozen dinner with a variety of food groups like a TV dinner with veggies, meat, cheese, and grains, or just eat fresh apples all day? Neither is the best solution, the prepared food isn't perfect, but it's pretty balanced, where if you only ate apples, even though they are fresh food items, it's not got everything you need. Come on now... surely there are people here that know a vegetarian/vegan human can be nutritionally sound if they really carefully plan their diet to include everything they need, but the vast majority are depriving themselves of needed nutrients? Same concept applies here. If you are willing to really throw down the time to plan a balanced diet for your roaches, by all means do it! It's just far more complex and time consuming than your average person is going to want to deal with. Otherwise we would all be breeding our own rats fed on a fresh diet (no lab blocks at all, just FRESH food) for snakes rather than buying them from a breeder like rodentpro.

[KORBIN5895]

I am trying to think of just one vegan I have ever seen that looked healthy and I am drawing a blank .....

[millertime89]

I know a few. It takes dedication though.

[KORBIN5895]

But do they look healthy? I have known several but they never looked good.

[candyraver69]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I am trying to think of just one vegan I have ever seen that looked healthy and I am drawing a blank .....

HAHAHA they are out there but certainly not the majority. Brad Pitt? Alicia Silverstone? Neither of them look like the slightest gust of wind would blow them away. Jered Leto... *whistles*

[ZARADOZIA]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

But do they look healthy? I have known several but they never looked good.

Alessia is and she's cute as a button!

[KORBIN5895]

Wait! I said vegan not vegetarians! What are they? There is a difference. The vegetarians I know tend to look healthy but I remember going to a Borders bookstore when a bunch of vegans were there handing out the meat is murder pamphlet. One chick came over and gave me a pamphlet and asked me if I knew the evils of raising "meat animals". I looked her dead in the eye and said I totally agreed with her and that's why i hunted and killed my own food. She looked like she was gonna puke

[stephanbakir]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Wait! I said vegan not vegetarians! What are they? There is a difference. The vegetarians I know tend to look healthy but I remember going to a Borders bookstore when a bunch of vegans were there handing out the meat is murder pamphlet. One chick came over and gave me a pamphlet and asked me if I knew the evils of raising "meat animals". I looked her dead in the eye and said I totally agreed with her and that's why i hunted and killed my own food. She looked like she was gonna puke

Rofl, I've pulled that one a few times and it never ended well.