Goanna Ranch

[crocdoc]

I think whatever reason they have the ability, it would have to go back further since so many species of monitor have it. On the other hand, it may just be overstimulation of the normal triggers for reproduction that causes them to keep going.

Jeff, you're a python person, do you think you'd be able to get carpet pythons to breed twice a year if you had two cooling periods and fed them up after laying?

[crocdoc]

Well, guys, I'm off for a couple of weeks. We can continue this conversation then.

Cheers all

[SHvar]

"Unfortunately, SHvar, as much as you like to think you're an unbiased bystander, you're still making inflammatory remarks such as 'and the experts say monitors never multiclutch'. However, as soon as you get called up on it, you accuse me of harrassing you. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Make statements like that and expect to get called up on it."

I see nothing inflamatory, but Im not gonna bite, have a nice day.
I believe they have the ability so that one unpredictable year to the next they can reproduce in between or around the worse seasons just for survival. The multiclutching itself is obviouisly a survival technique.
Im not naming names, I wont now and I dont feel like it, if names are brought up then the discussion switches to either bashing or bickering over that person and what they have said. Im trying to avoid the "out of context arguements" that have happened on another forum, and keep this short.

[jungleshadows]

do you think you'd be able to get carpet pythons to breed twice a year if you had two cooling periods and fed them up after laying?

I know that was not directed to me. But seeing as I have had my snakes multiclutch I wanted to say yes it is possable. My carpet pythons second clutch is in the incubator now.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No, I could probably get them to breed twice in a 12 month period, but I wouldn't define that as a multiclutch. They'd have to go through two different seasons. Pythons are designed to maternally incubate, so I highly doubt that follicles are ready to build and grow in the same season after egg laying.

[jungleshadows]

No, I could probably get them to breed twice in a 12 month period, but I wouldn't define that as a multiclutch.

In that case I guess my carpet pythons do not count. I have had 2 clutches in less then 12 months time but never had more then 2 clutches a year.

The only thing is I do not get them to breed they do that on there own. I do nothing but feed them I do not force any type of cooling period on them. I would imagine they can feel the changes of the seasons if you can call it that here in south florida.

[rsg]

What I find interesting about this thread is that someone asks about Goanna Ranch for their breeding experience (which they excel at) and it turns into a 4 page rant about evil old FR.

Man you guys are obsessed.........

Back to lurking.

[jungleshadows]

haha nice

[Steeve B]

Your pythons double clutched without any temperature cycling, wow you should stop wasting time with monitors, man you’re a python god.

Someone on this thread is a real snake Expert, he is meticulous with consistent results.
I can only have respect for his control not to slap you silly. Unfortunately I don’t have such abilities (you give me goose bumps Bob)

Oh by the way this thread is all about bashing Frank Rates, it should be deleted. such conduct are tolerated on this site. Why I don’t post anymore.

[SHvar]

The post was started as a question about Goannaranch and their captive breeding, in a few responses it was completely turned around to a FR bashing, then it was turned around again to say that the post was about wild monitors and science as well people feeling offended by FR remarks.
I responded to this post as quickly as I saw it go that way to try to get the subject back to where it was started. Unfortunately it continued in the wrong direction.
Yes I agree Jody snakes do multiclutch Ive seen it myself in a good friends collection. But the snakes remark was included as an example to generalize the point, not just monitors.

[jungleshadows]

Hey Steeve

Tell your friend I am sorry i didnt ask my snakes to breed or force them to. they did it on their own so he will have to slap them not me. BTW I am not bob.

I agree this thread has went from one direction to the other. To follow along the original post. I myself would have no problem buying from or recommending Goanna Ranch.

[mbayless]

Shvar says:
I know from herping here in Pennsylvania and other states on the east coast that almost all reptiles here live in areas that are isolated from each other (local populations), they are different by color or pattern and do not travel to mate with other populations unless there is a reason to leave their home area usually for good. This produces inbreds and does so probably in every area of the world. Some species may and do travel to den up but not as far as some people think, they just dont realize how many are actually in an area. This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot.

Mark replies: Shvar: I find part of your quote interesting, but disagree with you on the latter where you begin, "This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot." = This is not entirely correct in my opinion.

The differences in V. albigularis are geographic isolation. The hatchlings once they leave their termitaria/burrows, move into territories they establish. There are more females per male territory. Hatchlings 'know' or recognize one another by scent and do not interbreed (R. Williams, pers. obs.) - which supports a anti-inbreeding scenario, as many organisms do - inbreeding is dangerous on a genetic level, and Nature has made steps to derail this phenomena whenever possible.... and scent recognition is one of them -for V. albigularis anyways.

What monitors do in the wild can be reproduced in capivity when their needs are met, the better the captive environment, the more behaviors you see, and healthy monitors can be determined by how many 'natural' behaviors you see - behaviors seen in both captivity and wild animals.

Some people (AS's) say monitors act in the captivity is only thing that matters, with wild couterparts irrelevant - that is not so. They are couterparts of one another, and we can/do learn from both scenarios about these animals - and that is what we want to know - what they do, how they live, enjoy them, blah blah blah....I think some people are confusing their innate (instinct) behaviors with their 'learned' (adaptation) behaviors...

Yes, I too have seen multiclutching in my own Varanus, and it baffles me why we see it only in captivity - it baffles me because we should find egg nests with multiple clutches in there, and we do not see this. We do see nest guarding and other fascinating things, but to-date, not multi-clutching. Is mutliclutching a factor of captivity only - an adaptation to this different environment? Maybe....

Spike,here are some good ones for you and V. mertensi sources:

Lee, S.M. and J. Friedman. 2000. Captive maintenance and propagation of the Mertens water monitor. Reptiles, August, 8(8):70-88.

Lee, Sam. 2001. The captive maintenance and proagation of the Ornate monitor (Varanus ornatus) and mertens water monitor (V. mertensi) at the Bronx Zoo. pp53-77.

Hogston, J. 1997. The jewel of Australia. A look at Queensland reptile park. Dragon News 1(4):7-9.

Eidenmuller, B. and R. Wicker. 1998. Herpetofauna 20(116):30-34.

_____. 1995. Successful breeding of the merten monitor. Herpetofauna 25(2):4-7.

Eidenmuller, B. 1995. Successful breeding of the Mertens monitor. Vivarium, Sept/Oct., 7(2):18-20.

_____. 1990. Salamandra 26(2/3):132-139.

Vincent, M. and S. Wilson. 1999. Meterns water monitor -part lizard, part crocodile. Practical aquarium and water garden 29:10-11.

Shine, R. 1986. Food habits, habitats, and reproduction biology of four sympatric species of varanid species. Herpetologica 42(3):346-360.

mark bayless

[Spike]

Thanks for the sources, i'll look into them
Lee, Sam. 2001. The captive maintenance and proagation of the Ornate monitor (Varanus ornatus) and mertens water monitor (V. mertensi) at the Bronx Zoo. pp53-77.
is the above source only available at the Bronx Zoo?

and are most of the sources, related to the Mertens solely? or are the extracts from monitor books?
cheers

[mbayless]

Hi SPike,
Yes, these sources are related mostly to V. mertensi, as that is the species you asked about - the nice thing about have a catalogue for my Varanus papers - Ive speciated it to all species, cross indexed by 15 subheadings, and author file for 5,000+ sources now....both books/papers/articles, letters, keepers, videos, field notes, photographs, slides etc.... it takes up alot of room - room I no longer have now - and entropy is winning this battle!

The sources are available - the Bronx paper is not so easy to get, and if you have trouble, we can arrange for you to get it - if you really want this one, email me directly for details and we can get it to you, not a problem. I don't want to give my email on here but I think there is a way to email me from here? Im not computer savy.

Good luck Spike,
markb

[SHvar]

To explain.
If set up so that available resources are there to allow them to do so they can keep laying and laying over and over. Thats a product of plenty of food, good available temperatures, etc etc.
I havent bred monitors, yet people dont want to believe me that the female beardie I had from hatchling until about 1.5 years old layed eggs starting from 10 months old (when I introduced the male). She layed 21 eggs per clutch (except one), every 3-4 weeks and took 2 breaks for 1.5 months without laying. This resulted in 213 eggs in one year. She didnt lose weight, she kept gaining weight the entire time. I could have set a calender to her egg laying it was that regular.
My one pair of monitors, my red ackies, get along so well, and do everything together, if they produce or not, it does not bother me that much, because they are such a great couple. Im sure someday they will start suprising me. The female had a low price to get rid of her because the former owner had a trio and they never reproduced. In fact the female I picked out was in the best shape, she had all of her toes, no scars, wasnt obese, but had a lump in her one jawbone. In 2 weeks time the lump was gone, she was filling out more, and Ive observed mating 2-3 times so far.