New Boa Questions...

[tHeGiNo]

Bees have been shown to be one of the most "intelligent" insects on the planet, yet there is zero variation with them. Why? Because they are hard-wired, instinctual, and non-sentient.

Oh ya? Well how come when I smack one bee, he comes and attacks me, while sometimes others don't? LOL!

Frankly, I do not think it is fair to compare an iguana to a snake. They are two totally different animals.

Inviticus, I don't know man. I am not saying your lying, but frankly I will believe it when I see it. Maybe could you describe the context better in which your snakes come to you?

Like I said, the proof has already been offered by someone who WOULD be in the know about this kind of thing, and it is still being rejected by this community, just as I said it would in previous debates about the same subject. New ideas that challenge old beliefs seems to be the bane of the "old skool" herpers. So I guess it doesn't matter.

No offense, but just because someone who has an education throws something out in the open, I don't think thats means to make his word fact and him the god of snake psyche. And I mean, your saying how they just found out that dogs have emotions. Look at a dog, and look at a snake. I mean, from my perspective, you would have to be a moron to not notice that dogs have emotions.

And again, no offense and please don't take this for me calling you a liar. But I mean, its so weird that SEVERAL of your snakes love your companionship, however I have never heard of someone else saying the same thing. Unless of course you take the newcomers who think because a snake doesn't hold up a sign saying I don't like this, they are loving the interaction. Really, I would love to see this.

When a snake is in its enclosure, perfectly calm, not moving, and you take off the lid or open the glass doors or whatever, and they look, and come right to you, even though you have no food scent whatsoever on you, this shows a desire that the snake is exhibiting - whether it's just getting some exercise, or a genuine curiosity, some snakes do show a desire for human interaction.

Who is to say that they see you as a means to get the hell out of the enclosure? Just throwing some suggestions out there.

Odd that you should mention that Jeff because I experimented with this with my 7' male boa on several occasions, and guess what... he did gravitate directly towards me.

Seriously dude, thats crazy. I have GOT to see that.

[djc3674]

Well..this topic is far beyond my level of experience with keeping snakes. All I can say is I do think that reptiles to a point, experience mood or emotion.

Like I'm sure most of you (at some point) went to pick up one of your snakes and it hissed real loudly or maybe even stuck at you...this would make me believe that it doesnt want to be bothered (hence showing a form of emotion/mood). Other times...they want to come out of their enclosure, and while they are being handled, they are totally relaxed and seem to like the excercise. Because when you try and put them back in...they fight like hell and dont want to. So they are displaying a form of mood between those two scenerios.

Also, if a snake has mites...it seems to be uncomfortable to them...so they go into their water dish for a soak and this helps relieve their discomfort. They will do this over and over again...is this instict or do they remember that a nice soak helps relieve their discomfort??

[djc3674]

oh and one more thing.....snakes definately cannot decipher right from wrong.....have you ever put a nice clean hide box in their tank. They slither into it and stay there for days....and the next thing you know..they crap and pee in it..ruining the whole thing!!!! Now why on earth would they poop where they sleep??? LOL (know what I mean)

[Herpocrite]

Originally posted by joshm
I do believe the people have spoken.

And they have said, "We don't know."

Seriously folks, this is pretty much where the scientific comunity stands on this issue. No one really knows. Many people have very stong opinions, (as we have seen in this forum) and there is good evidence on both sides of the argument. A lot of it draws on many scientific discinplines for insight. Most of it depends upon how the concept of sentience is defined. Almost all of it is pretty fascinating.

Oh.... and one other thing....

I'M RIGHT AND ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!

Herpocrite.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Seriously folks, this is pretty much where the scientific comunity stands on this issue. No one really knows. Many people have very stong opinions, (as we have seen in this forum) and there is good evidence on both sides of the argument. A lot of it draws on many scientific discinplines for insight. Most of it depends upon how the concept of sentience is defined. Almost all of it is pretty fascinating.

Totally man. Fascinating is an understatement! But its reptiles. How could we expect anything less, right?!!

Cheers man. I hope we can further our knowledge about this, whether its proving or disproving whatever paradigm is existing. Its still fun either way.

[Cruciform]

Gino,

He hasn't said his snakes love him, but that they will come back to him if he puts them down.

It doesn't indicate an emotional attachment on the part of the snake, but say if the snake is returning to him because it realizes that:

a) it will be fed or warmed up by coming back.

b) that it will be petted in a way that relaxes it.

then there is a thought process going on. Not abstract thought by any means, and not a sign of sentience, but the capability to absorb information doesn't have to be accompanied by a sense of self.

There's a very basic thought process used in escaping from a cage. If it pushes where there is air flow, something may give.

But if you put a string on a lever that the snake could pull and have the door open for them they wouldn't get it. Too abstract.


(More opinions folks? This has been an interesting topic.)

If an animal of any type adapts its behavior to meet unnatural (wild) situations, is it learning on some level, or acting purely on instinct?

I've seen people say "Rub a mouse on your hand and put it in the cage" to see if a snake thinks. But that's assuming that the ability to learn will always trump instinct.
Even in complex animals like people you'll still see them completely forego logic and training to react instinctually to some stimuli.

I'm open to both sides of the debate. But I think we sometimes give animals too little credit, and people too much

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dynamite post Cruciform! Now get off the fence and tell us how you REALLY feel!!!! LOL!!!

Just kidding man. That was a well thought-out post.

[tHeGiNo]

I meant love as a relative term, not literally.

[Invictus]

Linds - You say you've never seen any evidence of your snakes liking you. You also admit that you don't handle your collection. I'm sorry, but those two factors combined are the very reason you have seen nothing. You treat them with indifference, they will treat you with the same. You have to handle them often to be able to create a desireable response from the handling, so I'm afraid you've literally created your own lack of evidence there.

I, on the other hand, spend ALL of my time with my snakes, studying their behavior, and trying to figure out what their individual stress responses are, and what their contented responses are. They are primitive creatures, and if you can't figure out when a snake is content and when it is stressed, you're a fool. That's all there is to it.

TheGino - As for your "I'll believe it when I see it", no you won't. You've proven that already. I've posted excerpts from scientific studies on the matter, which have all been rejected. I've posted my own experiences, which have also been rejected. I could probably post a neurological thesis proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that snakes do feel pleasure from handling, and you and Jeff would still reject it. So there is absolutely no point in my posting my personal experiences anymore, nor contributing to these debates, because they are starting to give me a headache.

For my OWN enlightenment, and for those who don't mind having their ideals challenged, I will continue to research any scientific findings about the limbic systems of reptiles, and any studies done on pleasure responses.

What I think is ultimately sad is, I post scientific research to back up my findings, and all you old skool people can say is "Well I haven't seen any evidence." Sad. Maybe it's because you're not looking for it.

[Retic chic]

I have only one thing to contribute to this thread.

I was excused from University anatomy and physiology class for the afternoon for challenging the prof when he suggested dogs and cats are color blind. He could not provide proof, but told me that he knew for a fact that dogs and cats are color blind.

When I asked him when in the he!! he was a cat, he excused me from the class. So unless you are, or have been, a snake, it is ridiculous to speculate on their perception and feelings towards us, if any. Like they say, opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one, and they usually stink.

[tHeGiNo]

Hey inviticus, talk about jumping to conclusions! LOL!

TheGino - As for your "I'll believe it when I see it", no you won't.

I meant, I will believe your snakes come to you when you open their cage, and come to you after you put them on the floor - when I see it. I am open to both sides, I have seen no evidence that says snakes are capable of 'liking' their owners.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I, on the other hand, spend ALL of my time with my snakes, studying their behavior, and trying to figure out what their individual stress responses are, and what their contented responses are. They are primitive creatures, and if you can't figure out when a snake is content and when it is stressed,
you're a fool. That's all there is to it.

I think that's the problem man. You're searching for something to explain reactions and observations, and you've come up with this zany idea that your snakes enjoy being petted. IMO.

I could probably post a neurological thesis proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that snakes do feel pleasure from handling, and you and Jeff would still reject it

No, you post something like that and I won't reject it. Not at all. I'll wait and see if it gets peer-reviewed and passes and gets published, but I won't reject. However, theses are a dime-a-dozen. Published papers, for the most part, are not. But show me a link to one, and definitely I'll think differently. Of course. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we refute and reject ALL evidence from ALL sources. LOL! Nice ego though.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
I have seen no evidence that says snakes are capable of 'liking' their owners. [/B]

And here's the other reason I am through debating this. You don't read what I type. I DID NOT SAY THAT SNAKES LIKE THEIR OWNERS, BECAUSE THIS WOULD INVOLVE PERSONAL IDENTITY WHICH SNAKES ARE NOT CAPABLE OF. Do I need to make this any more clear to you? I said snakes can, and have been proven to, experience pleasure from being handled. I didn't say they like us. I never said that. Now either read what I write or stay out of the debate, ok?

[tHeGiNo]

I've posted excerpts from scientific studies on the matter, which have all been rejected.

I was not going to bother posting this, but why not.

Exert #1:

Gentle handling of mammals (rats, mice), and lizards (Iguana), but not of frogs (Rana) and fish (Carassius) elevated the set-point for body temperature, i.e., produced an emotional fever, achieved only behaviourally in lizards.

Please show me in that section, or any other section of that article where snakes are mentioned?

The limbic system is a group of brain structures that are involved in various emotions such as aggression, fear, pleasure and also in the formation of memory. The limbic system also affects the endocrine system and the autonomic nervous system. It consists of several structures located around the thalamus, just under the cerebrum:

The limbic system is among the oldest parts of the brain in evolutionary terms: it can be found in fish, amphibians, reptiles and mammals.

A few things with that. So, that article is telling me that fish has emotions? And what kind of pleasure can a fish feel? I just don't see in nature, where snakes induce pleasure. The only thing I can see is being pleasurably hot, pleasurable full (food wise), and pleasurably comfortable. I don't see where it relates to human contact. I just cannot comprehend why snakes have certain aspects that they don't use in nature, but are readily available when a human comes along and handles it.

[Invictus]

Of course you don't. *shrug* I bet you haven't bothered to look for any studies on the matter either.

And no snakes are not mentioned, but if you knew anything about evolution, you'd know they came AFTER iguanas, and their mind maps are identical. But whatever. You're gonna believe whatever the hell you want to believe, so as I said, I'm through.