Heating for pythons!

[Jeff Hathaway]

I don't smell any foul odour at all. I know a few breeders that have been in this hobby much longer than me (10 years, for me) who are not on the net (or barely), don't post here, and wouldn't want their name brought up in a debate (as in 'well, Jeff Hathaway does it this way so it must be okay') because it is an easy way to offend some people if they think differently.

I know there are things that we do differently than many others, and they work for us and the animals we keep. And yes, we're always learning new things, and trying new methods.

I personally subscribe to the theory of heated room + gradients, as stated in my earlier post, and I do find corns, rats, and others using hides on the cool side as well as the warm side. However, I've also kept many things without an extra heat source, so they just have the room temp., and they have been fine. By fine, I mean they eat well, grow, and appear healthy. I'm not trying to breed most things, so that is irrelevant to me. In fact, for some I much prefer that they do not breed!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[marisa]

OMG! Whatever you are WAY too much for me.

You have 1 year? Did I even mention that? What I MEANT was to show an example....one person doing something with say 15 years experience and another person telling you something else who has only one year, I could have said two years, or three to illustrate that point, which was if someone has proven something themselves then I am taking their advice over someone who is just passing off information. The fact you are taking it personally is just SILLY! It had nothing to do with you or your year. Why would I bring that up when I have only been keeping snakes for just coming up four years myself, and I havent bred pythons either? I am on your level RIGHT NOW! Me telling you that your experience isn't enough is me saying that abuot myself at the same time. Which would be stupid. But o.k. take things however you want.

Much the same way the rest of this debate has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY. My post was full of questions and CLEARLY stated if I MYSELF used a no gradient method for python breeding, I would also tell others it can work. You blow your top, tell me I have thrown a number in your face.

No offense AGAIN but you come into the thread, pass information off (it maybe 100% legit and true, or 100% wrong) without putting it in practice yourself and bringing up breeders no one else on the forum knows anything about who also refuse to come public with this information themselves, and then get upset with others who have put information in practice...when they disagree and question who you are getting this conflicting info from so they themselves might be able to ask them questions or see why its wrong or right. So you tihnk you are right, thats great! maybe you are! But why are you getting so insanely defensive and personal?

What bandwagon? There aren't a million ways to care for animals properly. Many people have come up with new theorys, thrown them into practice and have had them fail. Is it wrong to question your theory of keeping pythons without a gradient? How is doing what has been proven sucessful for years "getting on bandwagon"? It's doing what has been proven to be successful. Your theory and ideas may be right as well, but that doesnt mean because we dont agree we are brainwashed. That's as insulting as me saying you only do things the way you do because you have little experience. Which I clearly did not.

I am also done with this. If one cannot have a simple debate and state they prefer information that is tried, tested, and proven effective by someone willing to talk on the forums, share info, maybe some pics year afer year, then why even bother. All we did was ask you for some more concrete evidence.

Marisa
P.S. And FYI...instead of acting like me and other people are in some sort of badnwagon with Jeff Favelle, you should know I have no personal contact with Jeff Favelle, I have pm'd him two ball python questions in the last two years, and I have no personal reason for agreeing with his position in any way. So please stop gruoping me in just because his husbandry is similar to my own.

[Invictus]

Marisa, start reading my posts with your eyes uncrossed please. I HAVE employed the heated room method, and it works. The reason why I have employed this method for SOME of my herps (Not all) is because others have done it with great success. I have also employed the gradient method, and that also works. I never once suggested or insinuated that it doesn't work.

You want concerete evidence, Marisa? That's great. SO DO I. But no one here can prove me wrong with any kind of concrete evidence, so instead, they resort to "Well you've only been keeping for a year, so you know ****." Gino, your little retort was exactly as pathetic as I expected it to be. No, my snakes aren't dead yet. But you still haven't answered my challenge.

PROVE TO ME, since concrete evidence seems to be a big thing here, that YOUR snakes who are kept at a gradient are somehow healthier, happier, or better off than mine who are kept at a constant temperature. Go ahead. Prove it. Since you are the undisputed expert on snake husbandry in general, and since the fact my snakes A) are not dead yet B) have good temperaments, and let's pick up on the things that you conveniently left out of your retort, C) eat like pigs D) digest and poop like clockwork, E) Shed like clockwork, F) Show no signs whatsoever of malcontent (Gee, that's a lot more than 3 points to back up my stance, isn't it?)..... so go ahead. Enlighten me, almighty one. What other signs should I look for that prove that my method of keeping a few of my snakes is harmful to them? And by the way, you better have some concrete proof, or I will continue laughing my arse off at your pathetic hypocritical responses.

JoshM - Same goes for you. You think my husbandry is wrong? Fine. PROVE IT.

Jeff H - Thank you. I'm sure you also know people who have been instrumental in the reptile community who have better things to do than debate husbandry with people who think there is only ONE way to do things.

[marisa]

I wanted you to show me your personal evidence that it has worked for you. Jeff showed me his. His photos, pythons and boas and his sales of healthy happy snakes. You have shown living snakes. Which is wonderful. That's what I have shown. But over the two of you I am taking the person who has raised generations of babies with a method.

You showing me someone else eivdence doesn't work. What am I supposed to do? Just believe what someone else who I dont even know told you?

Not likely. Which is why if I MYSELF proved it, or saw with my own eyes someone else having at least a couple back to back years of success, then I would also say its another great way. But I haven't. I have only seen that from people who use gradients.

Relax. The forum is FOR debate. You seem to think you are above it all though. Jeff has always been willing to debate with you...you constantly call him an elitist and refuse to continue once you feel he won't agree with you or someone else agrees with him.

Marisa

[marisa]

And frankly your insults to me constantly are getting old. I NEVER insulted you or told you "uncross your eyes"

That is childish, and poor manners at the least IMHO.

Marisa

[Tim_Cranwill]

Holy smokes, Ken. <b>CHILL OUT!</b> You're going to give yourself a heart attack!

A few things I read in your posts kind of make me wonder.

- How does a snake's temperament have anything to do with it's quality of life? Ever kept an ATB?

- If your snakes who are given a heat gradient don't come off it, maybe it's not hot enough or maybe your cool side is too cool.

- You always ask for such concrete proof, yet offer none to validate your points.

- You've got to admit that it does sound fishy that these "Top breeders who never post" that you talk to always come into the big heated debates. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but you've got to be able to relate to how it might look from the outside and you can't blame anyone for doubting you.

- Your big thing in the "heat lamp brb" debate was that in nature, the sun is a big heat lamp. Why the sudden defiance of nature's way? In nature it gets hot, it gets cold. Snakes seek the sun, snakes seek the shade. See what I'm saying?

- Try not to be so harsh. It turns what could be an informative debate into an idiotic string of retorts and insults.


Now, everyone take a deep breath, put on a good cd and go feed your animals.

[Invictus]

See points A through F above which prove that my snakes are more than just alive. And if you think me saying that you are reading my posts with your eyes crossed was an insult, I apologize. It was not intended as such, but read into it what you will.

And I don't drop out of these debates for the reasons you listed. I bow out because I'm bored with proving my points over and over again, only to have people say "Well you haven't done it YOURSELF (even though I have) and you've only been keeping for a year (ho hum, ho hum... yes, it's true. I'm a n00b, I know nothing. So I reference the fact that I do know other people who have done it for 20 years, and THAT's not good enough either, ho hum, ho hum... even others say they know people who have done it, but THAT's not good enough either, blah blah blah F*CKING BLAH.)

BOTTOM LINE: I am fed up with debating with people who are not interested in the proof that I have, who are not interested in learning what others have done, and who seem to get a kick out of berating people who dare to do things differently, and DEMAND proof, even though they have NONE of their own to offer. I didn't ask you to prove to me that Jeff's method works, because, for about the HUNDREDTH G*D DAMN TIME, MARISA... I'm not questioning that his method works! But you seem to be big on proof, so why don't you, and Jeff, and Gino, in all of your divine knowledge, prove to me that MY method is HARMFUL. Why? You can't, that's why. So instead, you resport to the whole newbie thing. And you say I'm being being childish?

[marisa]

Actually I wont when the person I am debating with is personally insulting, uses foul mouthed language when he gets upset for no reason at all, and gets incredablly personal.

When someone starts insulting me and getting as personally angry as you are, I am done.

Marisa

[marisa]

I am tlaking about BREEDING PYTHONS you are clearly talking about simple keeping and whats harmful.

I never enve brought up the word hamrful in my post. Maybe I should say it like you did and acuse you of not being able to read properly (crossed eyes) and then tell you for hundreth "god damn" time.

Marisa

[Invictus]

You're sure following this thread closely for someone who is "done" with it.

If I essentially implied that you were a liar and were making things up, Marisa, wouldn't you be personally angry?

[joshm]

Ken, Tim just went and said the same things as I have I am not attacking you I just wonder how the animals would feel being kept at the same temps all the time with no where to retreat for the cooler temps. I can't say for sure that it is killing them, but again I ask how you would feel being put in a room at 90 or whatever and not having a cool side, I'll bet not very good. As for proof that animals use this in the wild I have been out playing and watching rattle snakes and I find the most in the morning warming up, but by the mid afternoon there aren't that many out they have gone under rocks and underground for the coolness of it and then in the evening when temps go down they come out and do their thing. This I have tonnes of proof of if that is what it takes. That is why our southern brothers have what is called night cruising. Again I'm not attacking you, but I question the heat thing.
Josh

[tHeGiNo]

I am fed up with debating with people who are not interested in the proof that I have

Wheres the proof? My proof is that reptiles have been thriving for millions of years. Need I provide more?

Gino, your little retort was exactly as pathetic as I expected it to be. No, my snakes aren't dead yet. But you still haven't answered my challenge.

LOL! My retort is pathetic? How about instead of stating facts, you quote secret hobbyists and accuse me of sucking up to Jeff. You have quite the retort yourself! What is your challenge? I will be glad to answer to it.

"Well you haven't done it YOURSELF (even though I have) and you've only been keeping for a year (ho hum, ho hum... yes, it's true. I'm a n00b, I know nothing. So I reference the fact that I do know other people who have done it for 20 years, and THAT's not good enough either, ho hum, ho hum... even others say they know people who have done it, but THAT's not good enough either, blah blah blah F*CKING BLAH.)

Who is saying that? Who has said you haven't done it yourself or that YOU specifically have only kept reptiles for a year and that reflects on your knowledge?

I also do not believe anyone is accusing you of lying. We would just like to see these people who you stand by so closely, along with their success.

See points A through F above which prove that my snakes are more than just alive.

Ok. Well then lets review points A through F then. For this whole thing, I am going to use a specific experience for an example. A while back, when I first got into bearded dragons, I kept them lacking UVB/UVA light, and supplemented with calcium instead. I still have this bearded dragon in particular. He is still alive. He is still moving. He isn't turning into a vicious beast on me, etc. Now, to your points.

A) are not dead yet

Whoopie? I am not even going to bother with that point, because as I am sure you can admit to that attests nothing, or hardely anything valuable. Put it at that.

B) have good temperaments, and let's pick up on the things that you conveniently left out of your retort

That too means nothing. I went to a pet store today to see a Mali Uromastyx as thin as two quarters and on its death bed. Needless to say, he had a good temperament. Didn't try to bite me, etc. Next, I saw a corn snake on its death bed. It was kept on sand, too, to say the least in regards to its bad husbandry. I asked to take this guy out for further examination. Needless to say, he did not attack me, and was quite docile. This too means absolutely nothing to me. Good health and temperament are not in any way correllated. There are a few cases in which it may be, but with the animals in question, for the most part, means nothing.

C) eat like pigs

For this, for conveiniences sake, I will make a reference to the bearded dragon I mentioned. He too was eating like a pig. Typical bearded dragon. Needless to say it took a while to see things go wrong.

D) digest and poop like clockwork

This too means nothing. I will make a reference to something that JUST happened, that I just found out about. A friend of mine has a pair of leopard geckos. I fed them, and saw first hand fecal matter in the enclosure. I just found out that the heat pad on the enclosure was never used. He didn't think he needed to. Sure, these aren't snakes, but I think it makes a valid point. Not to mention, you aren't heating your room to 50 F. There is heat to allow them to digest. Properly? Who knows.

E) Shed like clockwork

I do not see how this reflects suitable husbandry. Maybe you will clarify.

F) Show no signs whatsoever of malcontent (Gee, that's a lot more than 3 points to back up my stance, isn't it?).....

Great, thats wonderful. Again, do you have a degree in reptile psychology or something? Just because you can not visually see any ill effects, it does not mean they are perfectly healthy, nor does it mean they are slowly sickening.

Well, there goes your A-F. As I said, the fact that snakes have bred and are living means jack ****.

To make sure you do not forget anything here, I would like to know a few things. First, how in the hell was my post or posts retortful in any way? Next, how does shedding reflect health? Despite what you think of me, or what we debate here, I think your an overall good guy. Just wanted to make that clear. I just do not agree with you tagging along with things because they 'worked' for someone else, and as far as you can see are 'working' for you. I will once again repeat a few things. The fact that snakes are living and breed in no way reflects their well being. And again, I could live off eating lettuce, doesn't mean it is good for me nor am I in the best position health wise.

[tHeGiNo]

Also, to clear something up, I am not saying no one does this. I am questioning their reasoning for hiding their identities. I am also saying that because they have kept snakes alive and bred them only attests to their hardiness. As already mentioned.

[mild]

I have to agree with Invictus %100

Although i may be a noob with 11 post i have been keeping herps for more than 6 years. I attend every reptile expo i can and am also a member of the KYherp society which is here locally. This doesnt make me any better than anyone eles but it does say that i am learning everyday and from what i can see on this board is exactly what Ken said.

No one will ever listen to anything new such as mothods of housing, feeding, or even breeding for that matter. If a well known breeder or a high poster on these forums comes along and says they do something one way it seems every other way is wrong and your considered a noob for trying something new.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Another thing... if you took a list of the top 5 breeders in Canada, and say, the top 20 breeders in the states, I guarantee you 80% of them do not post here, do not get involved in husbandry debates, and do not give a damn what Jeff Favelle, Gino, or anyone else thinks about husbandry. The reason why they don't post here is because they, like me, think it's pathetic how just because ONE method is proven to work, people think it's the ONLY method that will work

No Ken, sorry, that is NOT the reason big breeders don't post here (or on Queensnake). Not sure where you get your info from, but phone the Big 5 and ask them why they avoid public forums. If even ONE of them tells you its because of the overwhelming support for a single husbandry method, I'll not only eat my hat, but I will eat your underwear for dessert. LOL! Where you come up with these theories as to why the big breeders don't post is beyond me man! Ha ha.