My small rant - Page 4

marisa · 01-14-04, 12:57 PM

No you definitly would NOT sell at 500.

I am thinking you don't have anything worth over 2000$. Neither do I so do not take that as insult. My point is if you have say two snakes worth 4000 as a pair, they breed and you have four babies worth around 1500 each. You aren't going to drop price until eventually they sell, with high end animals you just sit on them until they sell in most cases.

And as for wanting Womas for 500 a peice? No way. If I am looking for a Woma and I have my 4 grand lets say....do you honestly think that if an ad popped up in my search with Womas for 500 I would go to that person? LOL no way!!!! There is no way I would be "looking for the cheapest" when dealing with high end snakes. You want high end, you get high end regardless of price. You dont take whatever comes long for cheaper as a buyer/collector or breeder.

Marisa

Siretsap · 01-14-04, 01:08 PM

We all ahve to agree we like to check for a fairly cheap price when we buy something. We are living in a society of advertisement of discounts, and no taxes or no payments till... so yes we will tend to bargain for everything we buy.

The other point I see, is the reputation of the seller. If, the seller has a good reputation, I would rather pay a little more to get something from him I can trust it to be because of his reputation compared to someone who doesn't have that reputation.

And if you are looking to make money with lizards, well let's say leopard geckos aren't in the top ends. Also, if you want to sell at a price you are asking, why not put some pics of your stock, this way people will pay the price if they think it is worth it.

MouseKilla · 01-14-04, 02:37 PM

Alright, I obviously said something dumb because several people missed what I was trying to say, my fault.

When I said that people only breed to benefit their own pocket I did not mean that people only breed to get rich or make money. What I did mean is that when it comes time to sell the animals that you may have bred just for fun you still want the best return you can get on them. Since I am one of the majority of breeders that knows they aren't going to get rich doing it and mainly do it as a learning experience or hobby I am the last one to say that it's all about greed. Breeding corn snakes is a dumb thing to do if you're trying to get rich but that doesn't change anything when you are trying to sell them, you're selling in the same ruthless market as everyone else and all the same rules apply.

I also don't agree with idea that too many low end animals are being produced or that this flooding of the market is bad for the hobby. If anything higher production and the corresponding lower prices will bring new customers into the market and at this point in the game, what's good for the market is good for the hobby.

I hear a lot about the Canadian market being too small but I feel it has just yet to be exploited. People who keep reptiles are still in the minority of pet owners but as more and more animals become available at lower and lower prices it's bound to catch on. I mean there are people out there who have rats as pets, honest to God rats. Would anyone keep a rat as a pet if it cost $100? Remember that no matter how much you love dogs you can only have so many if you live in an urban or suburban area. Snakes and geckos on the other hand can be kept by the hundreds in a spare bedroom or basement. I think there is a gigantic potential market but it must be cracked open first. The way to do that is to have available a diverse range of species at low prices.

red bootz · 01-14-04, 02:47 PM

Excellent post , mouse killa.

Youkai · 01-14-04, 02:57 PM

Hey, some of us have them as food in the freezer AND pets.

marisa · 01-14-04, 03:05 PM

Personally I do not believe the market in Canada will EVER be as close to as hot as it is in the states. Aside from the obviously population issues there are other things to consider.

Many of the largest colubrid breeders in the states with thousands of animals live in the south where heating and cooling aren't as big of concerns. Here in Canada a person with 1000 corns is going to need a lot more money and a lot more equiptment to have a business comparable to a USA breeder. Even if the population and market size were similar, it just takes more work up here to get things that large. It obviously can be done, just not as easy.

I for one can tell you that if I was in Florida I would have a lot more snakes than I do here in Ontario! LOL.

Personally I just would like to see less "average" stuff being constantly pumped out into Canada. I think Canada is at a point where we can have a large reptile market, or a smaller higher QAULITY market. I would hope most breeders would strive for this.

Another good post Mousekilla.

Marisa

Siretsap · 01-14-04, 04:41 PM

The lower the prices, the more people will be willing to invest in them. I bought a black roughneck monitor a few years back, and paid quite a lot of money for it at that time to have it die less than a month later and after a vet bill over 800$ for it. I never bought an other monitor since because of the high price of them and that most are wild caught and not in such good shape when they get in. If they were to be cb and the prices dropped, then I would consider buying some more.

It's the same thing with leopard geckos, a few years back they were over 100$ each and now, the average price in a petshop is betwen 50 and 70$, but they make over 200% profit, and an importer pays less than 10$ for them when he orders them by the thousand, I saw some prices on those.
I bred leos last summer, and I sold the babies 50$ each, or 2 for 80a nd 3 for 110$... I did sell all my leopard geckos, and I didn't want to sell any to petsotes, not because of the price they would offer me, but because I wanted the geckos to go straight into a place that was right for them.

I do not understand why you think that because a few people posted some reptiles at very low prices, we will all have to sell them these prices now. It's inevitable, people buy more geckos, breeds them, so you have a huge amount of them, and what happens when the market has a boom on a product, the sellers lower the prices to compete with each other, and the fact that it isn't a rare item either makes the prices go down a lot.

The wheel always turned the same way and I doubt it will change for reptiles. The more people get into it, the more are available and the lower the prices go. Iguanas are now 15 and 20$ in petshops around Montreal, a fwe years back they were 100$...
In a few years, I am sure you will have them on corner of pet store counters as a gift when you buy some crickets for food...

Dark_Angel_25 · 01-14-04, 04:44 PM

Hey Siretsap!!! I agree with your post, and most others. i will pay to get Quality from someone I know and trust. even if someone else has the same thing for way cheaper. I will go with what I know and feel safer with.

anders_240sx · 01-14-04, 06:34 PM

I agree going with a trusted breeder and paying more, but in response to siretsap's post, you do have to lower your prices cause all people do is say "why should I buy yours, when I can buy them cheaper from someone else"... I could see your point in "high" end reptiles.... I am still having troubles understand what makes some reptiles more "high end" than others ... yes such things a womas etc ..I could see being high end in Canada, whereas they are more common elsewhere.... and such species as mambas seem to be more prized here ...yet I was catching them in kenya...

Siretsap · 01-14-04, 06:37 PM

Well it's normal taht species that are on cites list will cost more to get in. Again it's the availability of the species. You don't see many woma breeders here in canada. Wait 3 to 4 years, I am sure the price for womas will have dropped a few hundred dollars.

ICULIZARD · 01-14-04, 07:02 PM

Marisa- I think you make some great points. Thanks for the response and clearing up my question.

As for the money issue.....I think it is important when selling for the buyer to realize there is different quality stock. If you want a beginner animal and buy a Normal Leo, realize that another table selling Leo's for $100 more could be due to the difference in quality (different morph, bloodline etc). If you want the best, you have to pay for the best. If you go to someone else and buy something for a lot less.....stop thinking "hey, I got a great deal" instead question what you got. Yes, you got a cheap leo, dragon etc.....was that your goal? Did you want a low priced whatever that you could have found anywhere, or did you want something special "the best of the best" . If you wanted something special, then you just wasted your money. (but hey, you saved $100...good for you)

We produce some lower end Bearded Dragon Morphs for the people that want a dragon but can't pay the high prices the high colours command. I agree that there are too many lower end animals being produced, unfortunately we have to do that to stay competitive. However, I think that a point brought up earlier clears this up. Even though we produce some cheaper morphs...they are in no way "bla" animals. Still great quality animals, healthy, just lower colours or bloodlines. So....I would like to think that they are still special and worth breeding. Breeding can be a difficult job to make money at.....you have good months and bad months and have to stay competitive, while keeping your prices set on the "high-quality" animals, and have enough money to carry yourself when sales are low as there are still hungry mouths to feed and bills to pay.

We would not sell our highest phase dragons for low prices (with the exception of advertised sales) even if a customer threatened to go somewhere else. We spent a lot of money on our breeding stock, so that we could produce the best for everyone. Why drop the prices on these guys and kill the market when we have put so much into it.

Even with our high-prices, we still have people coming back...time and time again. Why? Because we are consistant with the quality of our animals and we have put the money into our breeders to produce the best. Also things like customer service come into play. Providing care sheets with every dragon sold (unless you want to read it on our website instead).....being here to answer questions whenever you need help. Also, providing all the information on our babies (clutch hatch date, parents, bloodline info, pictures of parents, etc), letting people come and see our setup and breeders and standing behind the animals that we breed. When you talk about reputation I think these are the things that help build a good reputatioon within the reptile community. Your job is not done when you successfully hatch a clutch....you have to provide the "extras" and the service to your buyers to make yourself stand out.

ICULIZARD

Siretsap · 01-14-04, 07:16 PM

Even with "high end" specimens, eventually we all know he price drops down very fast. Look at an albinos ball python, 3 years ago, they were extremely expensive, and yet this past year, they have gone down a few thousand dollars. Why, becuase some people will buy at the high price and breed them, sell the hets and all, so you have more people who can breed albinos and eventually you have to start lowering the price to compete with the others who have the same as you. And quality price, isn't always true either. Reputation is what would make me pay extra money for a lizard or a snake. And what most of us call high end, is in fact, a defecience in the gene pool. Odd how we are attracted by an albinos specimen when you think of it ;-) But I would prob still be the 1st in line to get some mojave ball pythons. lol

And having many beginner lizards isn't a bad idea, I like it when I go in pet stores and see they sold out all their leopard geckos, this means there are more and more people getting into the hobby. Lower end also means constant demand. You will always have someone who will want a leopard gecko, compared to a woma, not many people see the value of paying such a high price for one snake...

anders_240sx · 01-14-04, 07:40 PM

Very true ...valid and respectable point

marisa · 01-14-04, 07:50 PM

Well by higher end I personally meant higher qaulity. And this doesn't mean womas and snow dragons say. This means only breeding the best of the best of ANY phase, including normals.

My corns had 20 babies this year. Only two were good enough that I would ever consider breeding them myself from what I could see right off the bat (obviously they will mature and some become even better than my holdbacks). I have three here at my house. Now should I just breed that third one just because I have it? Not in my mind, it will remain my roomates pet. I am just saying I don't like how everyone feels they have to breed everything that have every year and just keep selling things cheaper and cheaper to pet stores. It doesn't make sense. If you have some ho hum leopard geckos, and a pair of outstanding clean beautiful normal leopard geckos, keep the ho hums as pets and only breed your high qaulity ones. The only people I really see striving to do this are bigger breeders. You *constantly* see people with a pair of kinda crappy looking normal anything wanting to breed them over and over again. I don't understand this. I compare it to the dog "market" Breeding a breed of dog that doesnt exactly fit its breeds standard is considered very wrong by most breeders. This just creates more "o.k." Golden Retrievers for example instead of more people focusing on only those who conform. I realize we have no scale for this with reptiles but a little more personal discreation (sp) from small breeders (including even me!) would be nice for everyone involved in this hobby.

Then again people "into" it just won't purchase these ho hum animals so I guess in the end it doesnt really matter. Just chit chatter.

Marisa

Siretsap · 01-14-04, 08:01 PM

Well not everyone has the same perspective about the beauty of the animal. And by always trying to get a better morph and all you end up with some problems into your high end animal. The best example is in dogs, look at the Bouviers, all of them have hip problems because of the inbreeding they suffered. Why ll the inbreeding? to get the nicest bouvier... Same will happen with leopard geckos if you constantly breed them together without entering some new blood strain. I have a leucistic who has a crocked tail from birth, and more and more people are getting some reptiles with problems like this, either be a cornsnake with a crocked tail or a gecko, I am pretty sure it is in part due to some excess in inbreeding.

I personally still love a "crappy" looking gecko since this is what they would be suppose to look like in the wild. And we don't sell less and less to petstores, it's the pet stores who offer less and less. Did you know importers pay around 8 to 10$ per leopard geckos when they buy them in bulk (thousands at a time). Pet shopts pay those geckos from wholesalers around 18$ so when we manage to sell a leopard gecko 30 or 25$ at a pet store, I consider it lucky for that person considering the pet store will still sell that leopard gecko the same price he sold his wc one. I doubt a pet store will always invest more money into some cbb when he looses money out of it.