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10-04-13, 06:08 AM
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#46
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Member
Join Date: Apr-2013
Location: Near GTA
Posts: 472
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Published paper: EVAPORATIVE WATER LOSS IN SCALELESS SNAKES
Link: http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/18.pdf
__________________
1.1 Us (Chris & Heather)
0.1 Yellow Naped Amazon Parrot
9.80+ Various Ball Pythons (give or take)
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10-04-13, 06:18 AM
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#47
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Banned
Join Date: Apr-2013
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Age: 27
Posts: 1,398
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Boa
Anything to make him money, he'll do. Those people don't give a **** about the health of snakes. Pariahs in the reptile community IMO.
Rob
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As others have said + common sense has suggested. There's already scaleless reptiles that are healthy, and have the same needs as normal. Why would a Ball Python be any different? I would expect them to be normal, healthy snakes.
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10-04-13, 06:31 AM
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#48
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2013
Location: Gainesville
Age: 33
Posts: 1,298
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it
hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)
On a sadder note, we have already done these things, with dachshunds corgis, hip dysplasia with labs, etc etc etc. These 'horrible' things have already been done.
I didnt mean to imply that the scaleless skin was as thick as a normal snake, rather that it wasn't as structurally poor as we might think. From what I understand scales developementally are juat folding/invaginations of the epidermis with localized keratinization creating the scale itself. Take away that keratin and ....??? As formixa said I think this is a useful and interesting phenomenon, and could definitely be useful to human medicine/developemental biology.
Until someone can prove to me the snake is suffering or not aufferimg, I'm going to abscond from passing judgement.
__________________
0.1 Jungle Carpet "Bhageera", 2.0 Corn snakes "Castor & Pollux", 1.1 Cal Kings "Lux & Nyx", 0.1 Honduran Milksnake "Demeter", 0.1 Rosy boa "Neki-monster", 1.0 Axolotl "Grendle", 2 tarantulas, 0.1 Leopard gecko "Remus", and a freezer full of mice (and Rats!)….
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10-04-13, 11:44 AM
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#49
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Member
Join Date: May-2011
Location: Boise, Idaho
Age: 35
Posts: 74
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
I don't like the idea of calling the snake itself an abomination. It has nothing more to do with this than being born. I'm personally more disappointed with the breeder, but that started way before this little guy came to be.
I'm also curious about the heat pit thing, surely at least the nerve endings and such are still present, but without the pits themselves I wonder if it alters the way the snake "sees" heat. Without the protection of the normal scales surrounding them will the skin form a callous over the nerves making the pits almost useless? The snake's eyes as well, since we all know that they have the modified scale eye caps. This animal would in theory be missing that. Does it mess with their already iffy vision? Making them even more sensitive to bright lights etc? I haven't heard whether or not this animal is missing the ventral scales either - like the one born in 2007 was. If they are missing I can only imagine how difficult it'd be for them to move. I'm sure ultimately the animal will adapt to the hindrances caused by scalelessness, nature is quite stubborn like that.
I hope they don't continue the line until they at least are sure that the animals can reach a decent age without any health problems. (I'm pretty sure out of the two scaleless that where born one is male...) But that's a childishly optimistic hope when it comes to these people...
__________________
1.1 pastel BP, 0.2 normal BP, 0.1 Albino BP. 1.0 Boa, 1.1 Black labs, 0.1 Springer spaniel, 1.0 golden retriever mutt, 0.1 cocker spaniel mutt, and 2.0.8 fish, of varying species. I love my babies. <3
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10-04-13, 12:11 PM
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#50
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Member
Join Date: Apr-2013
Location: Near GTA
Posts: 472
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)............
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Right..
So for Franken-Dog:
>So we have taken away all the dogs slobering and wet bits.
>Removed the legs to get rid of all that pesky running around.
>Ok, need to get all the hair of that dog now...(check!)
>Now....lets just make him nice a shiny and a little more durable by adding some scales and he will perfect.
Wait..what..? (and...we're back!!)
.
__________________
1.1 Us (Chris & Heather)
0.1 Yellow Naped Amazon Parrot
9.80+ Various Ball Pythons (give or take)
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10-04-13, 11:14 PM
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#51
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Member
Join Date: Dec-2012
Posts: 238
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
I'm going to get bashed probably for this but whatever. Humans do animal mutations all the freaking time. Dogs, cats, and if course snakes just to name a few. Now I don't know how these animals are produced, how does a scaleless head python come about anyway? What I'm trying to say unless we somehow insert these genes into the snake, then these could happen in the wild theoretically. We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine. So why I don't neccisarly believe that it is right, we as humans want to be the first at everything. It's what we do.
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10-05-13, 11:24 AM
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#52
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2012
Location: Stephenville, NL
Posts: 139
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowhite03
We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine.
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Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:
Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake
Shall I go on?
Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...
Rob
__________________
"Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence." - CH
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10-05-13, 11:31 AM
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#53
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2012
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 275
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Boa
Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:
Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake
Shall I go on?
Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...
Rob
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Actually, a couple on your list *do* have scaleless variations.
Burmese pythons:
Scaleless albino atrox:
Scaleless atrox:
It's looking more and more like a lot of the species that are being heavily propagated in captivity are turning up with the scaleless mutation. Even scaleless gopher snakes have cropped up as far back as 1971 (and that one was a *GASP* WILD-CAUGHT!). The scaleless mutation is nothing new. It's just something that, through the line-breeding for traits and morphs, is coming to light more commonly.
EDIT: Here's a couple more:
Gopher snake:
Adder:
__________________
I keep and breed corns, balls, and other assorted colubrids.
15.12 corns, 3.4 balls, 1.2 Trans Pecos, 1.1 AHS, 1.1 ptyas mucosus, 0.1 coelognathus flavolineatus, 0.1 BCI, 0.1 GTP, 0.1 othriophis moellendorffi, 1.1 Leopard Geckos
Last edited by RobsCornField; 10-05-13 at 11:34 AM..
Reason: Added a couple more.
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10-05-13, 11:33 AM
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#54
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2012
Location: Stephenville, NL
Posts: 139
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...
They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!
So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?
Rob
__________________
"Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence." - CH
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10-05-13, 11:35 AM
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#55
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2012
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 275
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Boa
WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...
They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!
So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?
Rob
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It is my understanding that they cannot rattle. It looks like "nature" decided those were non-essential in the scaleless trait, unlike ventral scales and eye-caps.
__________________
I keep and breed corns, balls, and other assorted colubrids.
15.12 corns, 3.4 balls, 1.2 Trans Pecos, 1.1 AHS, 1.1 ptyas mucosus, 0.1 coelognathus flavolineatus, 0.1 BCI, 0.1 GTP, 0.1 othriophis moellendorffi, 1.1 Leopard Geckos
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10-05-13, 11:45 AM
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#56
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2012
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 275
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
In doing even more research (and here I thought I had done plenty before bringing my own mutant scaleless Texas rat snake home), it looks like scaleless snakes have been in the hobby since at least 1990, when Dr. Bechtel proved the gene in Texas rat snakes out as simple recessive. However, there were instances of scaleless snakes being captured in the wild long before then.
Eastern garter - 1982
Mole snake - 1978
Pacific Gopher Snake - 1971
Western garter - 1942
They were captured in various stages of maturity, and "none have been noted to have been any more scarred than a normal snake from the same habitat". source
So for those of you who say "this could NEVER survive in the wild! It's an abomination", nature just told you differently.
EDIT:
Scaleless hognose. Because reasons.
__________________
I keep and breed corns, balls, and other assorted colubrids.
15.12 corns, 3.4 balls, 1.2 Trans Pecos, 1.1 AHS, 1.1 ptyas mucosus, 0.1 coelognathus flavolineatus, 0.1 BCI, 0.1 GTP, 0.1 othriophis moellendorffi, 1.1 Leopard Geckos
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10-13-13, 08:23 PM
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#57
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2013
Location: greenup, ky
Posts: 105
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
I quite enjoy them....and wouldn't mind having one.... these snakes are getting it just as bad the hybrids people saying their unnatural and crap.
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10-13-13, 09:02 PM
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#58
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2013
Location: Shreveport,Louisiana
Posts: 122
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Personally looking at the pics adove I th8nk they look a little sick like old people who loose the color and thickness to there skin like the snakes have a health issue im sure thats not the case but thats what it lloks like to me
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10-14-13, 02:39 PM
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#59
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2013
Location: greenup, ky
Posts: 105
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
they are completly healthy.. unless cared for wrongly
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10-15-13, 03:06 AM
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#60
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Member
Join Date: Aug-2013
Location: anglesey
Posts: 200
Country:
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Re: Scaleless Ball Python???
Just my opinion I think the bp with no scales looks really nice I wouldent want to own one but I wouldent want a bp of eny kind full stop. I think if the breeders could say for certain that the snake could live a happy and healthy life then I dont c a problem with it. There is allways going to be people wanting to pay big buks for strange animals its human nature to want somthing no one els has. My opinion is there are way to much bp out there eny way all shows and expos are stuffed with them and the ones with no scales will be next I guess if they can survive.
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