Wild caught for pet shops, a tragedy?

[jaleely]

I implied government, but I don't really support that either as they are morons.
I support the idea of the perfect world and situation where there is no need to even have the idea of importing wild animals. Not gonna happen, but it seems the majority finds it no problem to invade nature and pick up whatever they want to do whatever they want with it.
I kind of mad at the process of all of it!
Making people ave to get a license for dogs hasn't stopped anyone from abandoning them, skipping out on medical care, and treating them like crap...making people have a license for snakes will be just as pointless.

I still think they should not be imported from the wild. there is no justification when there are plenty of homeless, abused, or abandoned ones unless you're wanting a specific display animal. Which, by definition, is something you only want to show off to other people.

And read which above post? I think i've pretty much addressed any reason you think it's okay, and said why i don't think it's okay.

In all reality discussing on the internet is pointless, as we've all already got or minds made up.

[snake man12]

I'm sorry I came off a little harsh but I do have very strong opinions on this matter. I agree with exwizard.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by jaleely

Darn right i'm holier than thou.
ANd i wouldn't have reptiles if they'd never been taken out of the wild. that's a sure as the sky is blue..

I hate to argue, but the sky is not always blue!!

My point being, there are exceptions to every rule, and no right or wrong answer on this subject

[jaleely]

The exceptions for keeping wild animals as pets is very small. Not even applicable for an internet post since most people around here, be included, keep the snakes for the simple fact that they just want snakes.

[Snakefood]

well that is a very black and white way of seeing a very grey subject. On a world-wide forum, everything is applicable to some degree!!

[red ink]

Personal reasons nothing more here....

Heck no to WC, lazy, uneducated and undedicated way for sellers to make a quick buck on another species life....

Difficult to breed in captivity, for some species absolutely... so if you don't have the dedication to figure it out to supply the captive industry with these species then they are probably not meant for captivity... What do some do? Pay some (usually) third world country to put a whole lot in a box ship them to them so they could sell them.... I'm sorry I will not financially support your ineptitude in the understanding of reptile husbandry nor will I support your lack of dedication to figuring it out just so you can put a whole heap of them behind glass with $99.99 in a bright star shaped sticker.

Being a hypocrite cause all of them came from WC at one stage or another maybe so... That doesn't mean I need to repeat the mistakes of the past or continue to do so. We all want cool new species but if you can't get them through people who have put in the knowledge and dedication in establishing a captive breeding program = then NO! Who are you going to turn to for knowledge on the new fancy species you have from WC origin. What do they eat, what are they're natural habits like, what's the correct temps, humidity, substrate.... oh wait I know all of that the pet store already told me. Let's face it inevitably WC are bought by noobs... noobs FFS, the last people who you would in trust a WC animal to, but hey 2 months down the track it ends up stiff in the trash, not to worry fresh new shipment on the way as long as they have another $99.99.

And the gravy train keeps on rolling for the inept and greedy, after all nature keeps making them don't it all i need to do is keep boxing them.

WC = keeping the reptile hobby stunted and keepers inept in their knowledge... LOVE IT

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by limey

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.

We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.

[stevenrudge]

Originally Posted by jaleely

The exceptions for keeping wild animals as pets is very small. Not even applicable for an internet post since most people around here, be included, keep the snakes for the simple fact that they just want snakes.

Theres nothing wrong in being opinionated,but your being patronising and generalising people on a big subject,l keep, breed and study snakes because for me they are the most fascinating animals on the planet,not everyone is a Moran that are incapable of looking after a pet,for sure you get people how miss treat animals,like you get people how miss treat other people but we do not judge all people the same,maybe we should legislate against stupid people having kidds because some do not look after themselves properly,Err hang on a government has already tried that--- the Nazis

[StudentoReptile]

I certainly respect everyone’s viewpoints and none of the following is necessarily meant to change anyone’s opinions, as likewise, I don’t really expect anyone to change mine. It is only meant to offer a different perspective on the issue.

*****

First off, this topic kind of reminds me of my personal stance on vegetarianism/veganism. I concur wholeheartedly that such a lifestyle (if implemented properly and for the right reasons) is much healthier and better both economically and environmentally. If everyone on the planet decided to become a vegetarian, the world would probably be a lot better. However, there is still a large faction of people that quite simply enjoys eating meat, and I am one of them. Getting that many people to make the change is, in a word, futile. [Note: this isn’t meant to drag that topic into this one. Anyone wishing to discuss vegetarianism, etc, please refer back to that thread. I was only using this as an analogy.]

So in that respect, I agree philosophically and commend those (like ezwizard) who choose not to deal with any wild caught species. I feel if there were more people like that, it would hopefully inspire more folks to focus their efforts on breeding species that, quite simply, are not commonly bred in captivity.

*****

Wayne pretty much hit the nail on the head. Our race is self-serving, and as long as it remains this way, nothing really is going to change. Allow me to elaborate…

Wayne mentioned habitat destruction. Not to trying to downplay the effects of over-collecting and wildcaught importation does to natural populations, but in reality, all of that is a drop in the bucket compared to how many animals are lost when an entire forest is demolished for the lumber or preparation for the development of a hotel or whatever.

I remember talking to Wayne on the phone before he came on my radio show a while back. He was telling me about how these countries work. People are making a mere few dollars a day collecting animals for whatever; pet trade, skin trade, food, novelty, whatever. This is how these people earn a living and provide for their families. I’m not saying its right or wrong; just pointing out how the world works in some of these places. Most of you are absolutely right; these people don’t give a rat’s behind about the “proper care” of savannah monitors or ball pythons. They likely never will. Try hopping on a plane and going over to west Africa and explaining it to them.

On another forum, we somehow got on the subject of zoos and how some zoos don’t take the greatest care of their animals, and elephants got brought up. One member said if he was an elephant living in Africa, and he had a choice, he would jump at the chance at living in a mediocre life in a confined space in an American zoo rather than fearing for his life every moment on the Serengeti that a poacher is going to come riddle him with bullets and rip out his ivory tusks while he’s still alive, or get gored by a rival male, or whatever. Now I know that’s elephants, not reptiles, but do you see where I’m going? I wasn’t really intending to use the “well, they always have a better life in captivity than in the wild” argument, because I know that is not always true, but back to Wayne’s statement, it kinda is. As long as humans are pillaging and ruining the planet, is the wild really the best place for some of these species?

Wayne was telling me that one of his contacts told him (and Wayne correct me if I remember this wrong), that savannah monitors are often torn apart alive by baboons….for sport, apparently. The monkeys don’t really eat them, they just catch the lizards and tear them limb from limb. God knows why, but shoot…one could almost make the argument that sitting in a boring glass tank for a couple of years under a basking lamp and having my meals brought to me is a little better than getting torn apart alive by a baboon, or going to the skin trade, or getting skewered on a stick to be sold in a bazaar somewhere, or getting crushed by a bulldozer’s tread because my habitat is getting turned into a factory warehouse.

*****

I may get some slack for bringing him up, but whatever…Tom Crutchfield’s unofficial slogan is “Conservation through Commercialization.” That’s almost what it’s come to be. At the rate, we’re destroying ecosystems across the globe, I often wonder how we can still justify leaving some of these species where they’re at. I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I know that in the grand scheme of things, in this big, huge machine of ever-turning wheels and cogs that represents the human race, its hard to make a huge difference.

Again, I commend some peoples’ reasons for not keeping WC. But whether or not you choose to buy WC probably doesn’t matter a hill of beans, because that’s one more animal that might get thrown into the skin trade pile instead of the pet trade pile, or gets left in the wild to worry about diseases in predators.

It is nice to ponder and envision an ideal, perfect world, but we’ve all heard the saying, “If you wish in one hand and crap in the other, guess which one will fill up first.” I don’t like to spend my time wishing for things that will likely never happen. I would rather focus on things that are real.

I’m a little like Jaleely at the moment; I’m at a place in my herpetocultural career in that I am focusing on rescues and unwanted herps, and not concerned with my personal desires per say. That said, my direction can always change in the years to come, and I may once again find myself wanting to work with new, obscure species, that may not be readily available in captivity-bred. I don’t like the system, but I know the system isn’t going to change anytime soon either.

*****

On a slightly different note, I kinda feel like this topic could be split into two categories. One category represents species in which the industry demand can be adequately met by viable captive-bred populations. I don’t have any sufficient data to support the claim, but it seems that the general consensus is that ball pythons are one such example that falls within this category. I suppose we’ll never know until someone actually pulls the plug, cuts us off from Africa and we are solely dependent on CBB stock. I bet, prices for normal will go up though!

The second category represents species whose demand cannot be met by captive-bred stock and collection from wild populations is still required. For the second group, obviously serious effort should be made to put those species into the first group, and if they cannot, then collection should be regulated.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by infernalis

We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.

This is one of the "exceptions" I'm speaking of. Perfect example being the San Francisco Garter. If they went and caught a swack of these out of the WILD, and gave them to responsible, knowledgable breeders like you Wayne, maybe we could save the sub-species as a whole. That is an exception that I can't ignore.

Then, like I mentioned before, the first Palmetto Corn was a WC male, which brought a beautiful new morph into an already domesticised species, of which we are all well aware of the care needs.

I am not saying I support the wholesale capture, shipment and sale of WC snakes, but like I said, the sky is not always blue, and there are exceptions to each and every rule, except that we all have to die one day.

[exwizard]

That was beautifully written. Thank you.

[jaleely]

Allow me to troll a bit steven (well i am, and you are allowing me it seems, since you are responding to me as if i am)... I think that animals can't look out for themselves, and instead are captured and forced into captivity. I said "Yup i own snakes. No, i do not think think they should be readilly available to anyone. No i do not think they they should be imported at all, and no, i do not think think that 95% of the breeding projects out there are helpful to the species."
So... you think that me saying that snakes (or animals in general) should not be readily available to anyone and everyone...a living, breathing, creature...is the same as the regulations put upon the jews and having children...as if i was a nazi.
I see.
So...treating everyone the same way...saying they should be able and willing to afford care for the animal, and that they should first home all the homeless animals, and that they should not import wild animals, is bad.
that somehow...that is as limiting as what the Jews faced in the Holocaust...have you actually MET anyone who survived the holocaust??

BTW steven, i do have to agree that i think stupid people should not breed.

[Jay]

That was an odd comparison....

[Snakefood]

and IMO, completely inapropriate too.....WOW

[Robyn@SYR]

Originally Posted by infernalis

We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.