bad advice in shops

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Bladeblaster, can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure?

My "opinions" are based on my own experiences and that of others. This makes them FACT. Just because I didn't get a grant from a university and spend thousands of dollars of tax-payers money, and compromised the lives of a bunch of snakes doing experiments doesn't make my point any less valid. So far, I have yet to come across any evidence that indicates this practice is beneficial to the animals involved. At best, they tolerate it and "survive." At worst...well, you saw the photo, and like I said, I'll post more later if you're not convinced.

So again: can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure? If not, then we'll agree to disagree.

I'm done arguing about the red-tail in the photo. It is a red-tailed boa eating a ball python, and my only purpose for posting it was to show that it can happen. Not to determine the age, size, and locality of the snake.

I never said it was beneficial to keep a BP and a RTB together, in fact I have already stated that I do not think it is beneficial.

You are the one using your 'opinion' as fact, I am pointing out that they are not facts, mearly opinions. You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

You used the photo in question as an argument for not cohabiting a boa and a python, therefor everything in that picture is relevant, and if the RTB is over 2ft then I will eat my hat. You can tell by the head and body shape / musculature that snake is round about 12 months old.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

The problem is most people research herps by asking the guy at the pet shop.
I agree , worst advice I have heard came from local pet shops.

^^^^^
i hear what your saying and agree,a lot of people wander into reptile shops,then take everything the shop owners say as gospel

back in the day,i volenteered to work weekends for free at a local shop,so i could get some hands on experience,the owners had a reasonable knowledge over a wide range of reptiles.i also used to deal with any trips to the vets,as the owners did not drive

their knowledge gave me a starting point for my own research,i found out they were correct on a lot of things,but wrong on others,also the vet trips gave me excellent hands on experience,without any of my own snakes being sick

people need to do their OWN research,how we get folk to do that,i have NO answer to i'm afraid mate

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

Admittedly and regrettably not much. I suppose we could now debate the semantics and definitions of what exactly constitutes "social" or "solitary" behavior in a particular animal. I will acknowledge that it varies with the species (actually heard some very enlightening research done on the parental behavior of rattlesnakes recently), but in general, one does not see hordes of snakes gathering in herds, communing with each other, engaging in cooperative offspring-rearing, foraging/hunting in groups, etc. They rarely associate with each other outside of courtship/reproduction and hibernaculum.

Some may have different opinions on this, but I do try to keep up with current information. I don't have the time to go out in the field and observe every single species of snake on the planet to satisfy the likes of people like you who feel that booksmarts are utterly worthless, but oh well...that is something I have come to accept a long time ago because my schedule does not permit me to do so often. I just have to live vicariously through everyone else and learn through what is written in the meantime.

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

Perhaps I have not made myself clear. Obviously, it "can" be done because careless fools do it all the time. My point is that the vast majority of the time, it shouldn't be done, because most keepers cannot or will not make the proper accommodations.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

I never said it was beneficial to keep a BP and a RTB together, in fact I have already stated that I do not think it is beneficial.

You are the one using your 'opinion' as fact, I am pointing out that they are not facts, mearly opinions. You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

You used the photo in question as an argument for not cohabiting a boa and a python, therefor everything in that picture is relevant, and if the RTB is over 2ft then I will eat my hat. You can tell by the head and body shape / musculature that snake is round about 12 months old.

I'm only here for the picture debate now.

Based on the colouration, columbian boas change colour from neonate to adulthood, and the size relation to that ball python it's well over 12 months old.

If you want more proof, take a look at that picture in the paper to the bottom right. Given that we all know a newspaper looks like and can speak in general terms we'll say that it's easily 4 inches in length. Using that same picture as a referral we can than infer that the snake is longer than 24 inches as I can see more than 6 of those pictures next to that animals length.

Prepare to eat your hat...

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

They rarely associate with each other outside of courtship/reproduction and hibernaculum.



Perhaps I have not made myself clear. Obviously, it "can" be done because careless fools do it all the time. My point is that the vast majority of the time, it shouldn't be done, because most keepers cannot or will not make the proper accommodations.

Well I can tell you from field herping, find one snake and you will find a bunch of snakes, different species, same species, males, females. Often 6 or 7 under on log, or whatever they have chosen to hide under, or even in the open together in groups. Not always sometimes of course there will be one on its own, but more often than not there are several.

Now that last statement is much nearer the truth.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm only here for the picture debate now.

Based on the colouration, columbian boas change colour from neonate to adulthood, and the size relation to that ball python it's well over 12 months old.

If you want more proof, take a look at that picture in the paper to the bottom right. Given that we all know a newspaper looks like and can speak in general terms we'll say that it's easily 4 inches in length. Using that same picture as a referral we can than infer that the snake is longer than 24 inches as I can see more than 6 of those pictures next to that animals length.

Prepare to eat your hat...

That picture is around an inch and a half

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

Well I can tell you from field herping, find one snake and you will find a bunch of snakes, different species, same species, males, females. Often 6 or 7 under on log, or whatever they have chosen to hide under, or even in the open together in groups. Not always sometimes of course there will be one on its own, but more often than not there are several.

Now that last statement is much nearer the truth.

Maybe its different over there across the pond, but anytime I have been field-herping, that has been the exception, more than the rule. I have found a decent number of snakes in a particular area (say, a 3-mile stretch in southern Illinois), but the most I ever found underneath a stone was 2.

I have several friends that practically field-herp every idle moment of their lives, and I rarely hear of them finding groups of snakes under a single log or rock, or whatever.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Maybe its different over there across the pond, but anytime I have been field-herping, that has been the exception, more than the rule. I have found a decent number of snakes in a particular area (say, a 3-mile stretch in southern Illinois), but the most I ever found underneath a stone was 2.

I have several friends that practically field-herp every idle moment of their lives, and I rarely hear of them finding groups of snakes under a single log or rock, or whatever.

most of my field herping has been done in california

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

most of my field herping has been done in california

I suppose the area is different then, along with the species endemic to it.

All of my experience is been in the Southeast, in during spring and summer.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I suppose the area is different then, along with the species endemic to it.

All of my experience is been in the Southeast, in during spring and summer.

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Maybe you don't know as much you thought! (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier

Possibly. Again, I don't know everything about every single species of snake. I can only go by what I have observed and what I have read. And based on my observations of snakes both in captivity and in the field, as well as the findings of others with more experience than myself, coupled with the general definitions of what constitutes "social behavior" in the animal kingdom, I still consider most snakes to be solitary creatures.

You're more than welcome to disagree until the cows come home, but it is what it is.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

That picture is around an inch and a half

The footballer is not an inch and a half.

You sir have never seen a boa I believe. I'm done with this argument. You're reasoning for it being such small animals is false and not based on any facts. The ball python itself is a mere 20 inches or so, I should know, I have plenty, and the boa dwarfs it in size by at least double or triple that in length.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier

Garters are the exception to the rule of solitary. They actually tend to be social. They are good to keep with multiples in an enclosure.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Garters are the exception to the rule of solitary. They actually tend to be social. They are good to keep with multiples in an enclosure.

they are not an exception to the 'rule' at all. There are just one of many snakes that behave this way.

It's funny because none of the snakes I have encountered know anout these 'rules' that herpers make up for them.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The footballer is not an inch and a half.

You sir have never seen a boa I believe. I'm done with this argument. You're reasoning for it being such small animals is false and not based on any facts. The ball python itself is a mere 20 inches or so, I should know, I have plenty, and the boa dwarfs it in size by at least double or triple that in length.

you guys must have some huge newspapers thats all I can say. I am sorry but I am just not seeing what you are seeing.