Is it just me or are prices crashing on...

[BoidKeeper]

Sounds like a good business plan to me Leon. And here I thought you had become frustrated with the state of things. Sounds to me like you've got your thumb on the pulse of the industry.lol
Cheers,
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Well here we go again.

I believe the original question that started this thread asked IF prices were in fact falling. That question has since been confused with argument about whose fault it is that some prices have fallen (this obviously assumes that they ARE lower) and, even further off topic, the argument that lower prices will put snakes in the hands of bad owners.

As for the original question, I would say that I have not personally noticed any real movement in the average market price of lower end animals, I don't know about specific morphs or species. These prices will tend to oscillate over time as Stockwell described as people get into and out of breeding certain animals. As the prices get low enough to let some people into the game others move on to more gainful projects. Prices will go up and down with the supply in the market.

This brings me to the idea that some people seem to have about breeders keeping their prices high. There are different reasons people say they want breeders to simply charge more but it's a silly idea that shows a lack of understanding about a free market.

If 1000 normal BPs are produced in Canada it is quite possible that only 800 can be sold at $125 each, maybe 900 could sell at $100, the remaining 100 snakes would simply have to go for less due to the cost of keeping them until they are sold. I obviously picked those numbers arbitrarily but the point remains that price is determined by SUPPLY and DEMAND not by the whim of a breeder.

As for kids with burms, that is more of a question of breeder's ethics than it is a question of pricing, not to mention a parenting question above all. lol! Who here could imagine convincing their parents at 14 that you are wealthy and responsible enough to care for a 15 ft snake? I was lucky to get away with a garter snake at that age. lol!

[Corey Woods]

The price on normal balls and boas, for the most part, isn't controlled by the breeders........but by the exporters. I believe the export quota last year for CH/WC balls was in around the 250,000-300,000 mark with 90% of them comming into North America. I'd say about 80% of them make it to the pet store but only about 20-50% of those actually live to see their first birthday. Pet stores are able to purchase WC balls (in the USA) for $5-15 each and with Canadian petstores being able to purchase them for $25-40 each. So, if you have a petstore buying 500 CH balls for $25 each and reselling for $100 that doesn't give the private breeder producing 10-50 normals in his basement much room for markup. If the export quota on balls was dropped to 20,000 a year the prive of normal balls would probably hover around $300-500 each since the supply was low and demand was high. Private breeders would then have more control of the market.........but most breeders don't even try and compete with WC balls as their are just so many comming into North America.

As for the licensing idea posted earlier.........that just goes to show you the ignorance of some people who don't know how the markets really work.

Corey

[Invictus]

The licensing has nothing to do with the markets Corey. Alberta, for instance, just banned giant snakes - they didn't even give thought to the permit system. I don't think ALL snakes should require permits, that would be silly. But hots and giants, maybe even boa constrictors, SHOULD be on a permit basis in my opinion. Since you have to be 18+ to get a permit, this would stop a lot of kids from getting snakes that there is NO WAY they can take care of, but would allow responsible keepers with a genuine love of giant pythons or hots or whatever the case is, to have them. Just my $0.02

[MouseKilla]

Corey,

That is an interesting insight about the exporters, it sounds like they are a major source of downward pressure on market prices. Even if most breeders don't try to compete with the price of imported animals there is no question that the additional supply drives the price of CB animals down. I don't think most people realize just how much imported stock is coming in, if they did maybe less fingers would be pointed and the alleged low-balling basement breeders that really don't produce in sufficient numbers to drive prices down significantly.

The importing of animals that are being bred in the country benefits no one but the export/import companies and the pet stores. The first-time snake owner gets inferior stock that is often either not eating, sick or parasitized and the domestic breeder (and his far superior stock) is cut out of the picture.

I don't know what branch of government controls the importation of animals for the pet trade but maybe Canadian breeders need to jointly lobby to have the importation of animal species that are domestically bred stopped or more strictly limited. I know cattle and other livestock producers lobby to protect their industry so I don't see why it can't be done for the snake industry.

[Gary D.]

Sorry Ken I disagree. In fact no reptiles are "banned" in Alberta, just restricted, meaning permits are required for giants, venomous, indiginous,etc. The catch is that They will not issue any new permits. Now you make permits required for boas and whammo, you can't legally own them either for just the same reason. F&W are too under manned and under funded to even considder issuing permits for the cost and red tape it creates. BAAAAAAAAAAAD idea.

GD

[Invictus]

My point is Gary, it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be impossible to get a permit. What if (and this is completely hypothetical here), you were able to go into F&W office, apply for a permit, which involved an interview with a qualified CO who would make sure you knew what the hell you were doing, were over 18, and were able to prove that you have the means AND knowledge to take care of said animal. Wouldn't that defer the "throw away" market, while at the same time protecting the rights of responsible owners? As soon as you throw catches like "you require a permit, but we won't issue them for any reason", that's a ban, I'm sorry. And a ban of any kind, be it on reptiles, smokers, or whatever, is an infringement of rights. At least give people the right to prove they deserve that right.

Man, did this get off topic......

[Gary D.]

perhaps you missed the reason why permits are unavailable. Lack of man power and funding. As such they deal with a list of priorities. Conservation enforcement and renewable resource management (protecting and managing out local wildlife) = primary importance.

Issuing paperwork so as not to opress hobbyest's "rights" to keep exotics animals and keeping said species out of shelters and rescues = not even on the same planet.

[Stockwell]

Many of these concepts and arguments I have heard over and over many times through the years... and we tend to forget how small a minortiy we really are and as such, there is very little political will to cater to us in any way shape or form... So whenever I hear talk of wanting goverment involvement in the hobby, it just makes me cringe.
The entire problem with the concept of permits, and having government control on either licensing or even importation of certain species is that, all of that costs money and requires qualified staff to implement any system, and there aren't enough parties involved in such minority activities as ours, to self generate the revenue required to make it happen..

Politicians would be burned at the stake for pissing away taxpayers money to implement such frivolous things as snake licensing for what is considered a minority weirdo fringe group.

There is likely just as many people that would like to be licensed to produce their own fireworks and still their own spirits.

The danger in even courting any government involvement of a regulatory nature in our hobby, is that it has the potential to backfire and shoot us in the foot, by simply making our pressence known..
It's far easier and cheaper for the government to ban certain practices if they detect our self flown "red flag" rather than have to pay for the complexities of regulation. Canada still doesn't really have fish and wildlife inspectors like the US does, so if there isn't enough money to even enable a broad service like that, we're likely light years away from specific conformity type licenensing arrangements for specific herp species.
Our numbers would have to be dramactically increased to have any political pull, and that is really unlikely in our lifetimes especially with Canada having such a diverse cultural demographic with a growing percentage coming from serpent fearing countries.

Gary, I'm curious.?? why are no more licenses being granted??
I suspect, it all costs too much and there is nobody qualified to administer the program, right ?? It's also a huge liability for goverments. I'm just assuming here... Do you know exactly why?

[beth wallbank]

Amen Roy. What the gov't don't know, don't hurt US. Keep the higher uppers outta our hair and outta our hobby. The less we stir with them, the less they will red tape us. Plain and simple.

[MouseKilla]

I agree that the government has an easier time banning and outlawing things than they have with making reasonable rules. I also agree that as a group our political power is next to nil (if not in negative numbers) but in the case of limiting or outlawing imports I think matters are a whole lot less complicated. Fear and ignorance of snakes is an advantage when you are trying to impede them from coming over the border, isn't it? There must be some regulation on importing snakes, how hard could it be to have the rules tightened?

[Corey Woods]

Ken,

The original poster about the "ban" wasn't talking about large constrictors. He was talking about government regulations to make sure people didn't "Crash" the market. Bascially he was saying that you'd need a permit to own male and a different one for females.........and penalties if you bred them without a permit. How does this relate to keeping large constrictors in alberta? If you ask me their are too many red necks keeping large "dangerous" reptiles (including but not limited to pythons over 10 feet, venomous snakes and all crocs, caimen and alligators). When I was breeding burmese I had more people calling me bascially saying "I want a big snake for my first pet" and they could hardly put a sentence together than I had legitimately dedicated herpers.

Corey

[Gary D.]

It's pretty much as you said Roy.

There is also the underlying feeling that this entire facet should be under the jurisdiction of Municipal animal services not F&W.

Now I am not in any way connected to F&W and this is really only my impression from what I know and what I have heard. But it makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Corey Woods
Bascially he was saying that you'd need a permit to own male and a different one for females.........and penalties if you bred them without a permit.

There should be a program like that for humans, let alone reptiles. And that might be easier to get funding for too.

[v2r]

i think we as hobbyists/breeders should educate more on the pros/cons of import vs captive bred to the masses. push captive more and really stress the negatives of imports. something is only worth what someone will pay for it! we as customers are responsible for the prices dropping. how many of us buy something without comparing prices? if all of us could make captive animals a higher status or something the general public cooses over imports that would help alot. real life education on the pitfalls of alot of imports i think would benefit us and the animals both.


thanks
vaughn

[Jeff_Favelle]

Since you have to be 18+ to get a permit, this would stop a lot of kids from getting snakes that there is NO WAY they can take care of, but would allow responsible keepers with a genuine love of giant pythons or hots or whatever the case is, to have them. Just my $0.02

I'm of the opinion that age is a really really bad measuring stick. I know some people who are 50 and shouldn't own a garter snake, yet I know 12 year old "budding naturalists" that would do GREAT with a boa or other large-ish constrictor. The age thing sucks. I knew more about snakes when I was 5 than 99.99% of the people in my immediate surroundings today.