Release day

[Cruciform]

I know, was just adding to it

[HtotheB]

On an unrelated note when I was young my father used to take me to Hawk's Cliff sometimes to bird watch. I remember it to be a very nice location

[Cruciform]

You should take a drive out there, it's probably changed considerably. Since early spring of this year parts of the cliff have washed away, taking about 20 feet off, and completely obliterating one of the farming roads that ran parallell to the edge.

The bird watching is crazy too

Last night on my way into London, we stopped by Wonderland and Ferguson Line to watch some RC airplane pilots fly their toys. We couldn't stay long so came back on the way home, and checked to see if they were there. It was dark but I was hoping they had some night flyers.
Instead we saw the most fireflies I've ever seen in one place. It was quite cool to watch

[MouseKilla]

I'd be interested to know what makes anyone think that an animal can be "thrown off" a brumation cycle, at least for any more than a single season.

As far as I know these things are triggered in the animal by outside conditions, namely temperature, humidity and photoperiod, they don't choose to do it or learn it, it's genetically hardwired into them to do it once the conditions are there.

If they happened to miss winter completely this year and therefore didn't brumate I don't see why they wouldn't automatically cycle properly the following year.

I have snakes that didn't cycle for the first 3 years of their lives but as soon as I decided to put them in the cold room in the fall they did their thing over the winter as normal and came out in the spring ready to make babies. Sound like any CB colubrids you know? Why would wild snakes have to cycle each year when captive bred ones do just fine brumating some years and not others or never brumating at all?

I don't think any harm could come from keeping them warm all winter and in this case it was certainly better than the certain death alternative.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well, mousekilla, I don't have the papers in front of me, but I recall a study of black rat snakes in eastern Ontario, where specific snakes were tracked over several years. Individuals tended to go into hibernation and emerge from it within a few days of the same time each year, regardless of above ground environmental cues such as temperature. Photoperiod could certainly be a factor in them going down, but I don't see it as very likely for emergence. So, there may be some things built into them regarding the timing that we don't understand, and if we don't understand it, I say err on the safe side as much as is reasonably possible.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[MouseKilla]

Jeff,

That certainly is an interesting fact and I'd agree that we probably don't know all there is to know about the hibernation and breeding processes. In the case of wild snakes it is impossible to argue against meddling as little as possible, but in the case in discussion I think this was done. He intervened because the alternative was almost certain doom, it seems.

What I was trying to say was that I don't see what harm could come from missing a season of hibernation. I guess "harm" is one of those tricky, subjective words but I was speaking mainly in the context of reproductivity. Maybe they would be thrown off in that given season but the following season, I think we have ample reason to believe, they would hibernate and breed as normal.

You wouldn't happen to know where I might find that study of black rats online would you? Sounds interesting.

[Jeff Hathaway]

No doubt I think it was better than the alternative:-)

I doubt that the black rat study is available online. Most scientific journal articles are not. At this point, I can't even remember what journal it was in, but the study was done at Murphy's Point PP, I believe by researchers from Queen's. Perhaps Ryan could dig up a reference since he's got easy access to a reference library...

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Removed_2815]

I am up in Algonquin right now at the Wildlife Research Station tracking the nesting Snappers and Painteds. I will have a look when I get back, likely Friday. Sounds like a study that Gabriel from Ottawa might have been involved in...
Cheers,
Ryan

[MouseKilla]

Sweet! Thanks guys.

[Removed_2815]

Here is a .pdf of the study done in 2000 by Gabriel Blouin-Demers, Prior and Weatherhead. This is likely the study that Jeff was thinking of.
Patterns of variation in spring emergence by black rat snakes (Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta)
R

[MouseKilla]

Right on, I'll check it out. Thanks

[Sean_.E.]

There are some very interesting opinions in this thread. I especially agree with Dave Smith.

Sorry, for jumping down your throat Cruciform. I over exaggerated the situation because I did not know all the facts. When I responded I obviously did not see you previous post(s) and just reading this post, it seems as if you just took garters out of the wild for the winter, just for fun. I responded with an opposing attitude because I have seen and heard of people just simply taking animals out of the wild (not only over the winter) for their personal amusement, etc. Not knowing what they are doing and negatively impacting the animal(s). I just get so annoyed when I see this.



In one case I got a call from a family who had taken a young snapping turtle from their cottage in the Muskokas. They wanted to know If I wanted it because they taken it from their cottage a few months before but didn't know how to keep it, feed it, or take care of it in general. Now, okay that doesn’t sound too bad, but… It was late fall by this time, temperatures were below zero outside, the parents were allowing the kids to handle and play with the turtle on a regular basis, they had also brought it into school where students were allowed to hold and touch it and who knows what else.



The family asked me if I would take the tiny young turtle off their hands, I didn’t really want a young snapper but said I WOULD either:



1.Take it off there hands for the winter, (keeping it in quarantine) and give it back them in the spring (or whenever they went to their cottage) to release it where it was found.



OR



2. Contact someone who I knew, that has experience with native species and see if they could deal with it.



Well, a long story short, the family told me they would call me back and never did. So I called them and they told me that they had just simply released the turtle in a near by stream.



Unless this turtle was EXTREMELY lucky he died with in a short period of time after being released.



So to conclude and make my point, I think you did do a good deed for these garters and I apologize for my ignorance. I still do believe that, for arguments sake, keeping a wild snake over the winter CAN negatively impact it. I hope that the snakes you released survive and do well.



Sean E.

[HEVYCHEVY427]

Go away for 3-4 months and come back...things never change...all you ever hear is cut up, cut down,criticize, beat on, whine,debase, humiliate, and in general treat people who do not conform to your way of thinking as crap.
I always thought the purpose of forums was information and comradery.
NOT!!

[Cruciform]

Well, there's always lots of disagreements, but nobody has to have the same opinions.

The thing about these forums is that personal attacks are virtually unheard of. People might take a strong except to what others do, but name-calling is rare.

Blood may boil, but at least no one's feelings are getting hurt

[Linds]

Originally posted by YummyCdnMale
once in captivity like that it's very hard for snakes to readapt,

Snakes aren't like some of the higher-functioning animals out there that will not be able to be successfully released back in to the wild (ie- a handraised lion) . They are hard-wired, and nothing we can do will influence that. They don't have to readapt to the outdoors - the (unfortunately) many snakes that have escaped in the warmer states that thrive - regardless of whether it was overnight or for years - are a good example of this.