South Florida Grand Slam of hots - Page 3

shaggybill · 04-12-04, 10:12 PM

Thats cool. I dont collect, not that I have anything against it, but I dont want to make headlines for carrying a EDB on the plane ride home. Hehe.

I didnt know there were so many people that were out there looking for them. Are these roads close to Lake Okeechobee? Last time I was down, I briefly cruised what looked like a great dirt road in the Okeechobee area. When I come back down in May, I hope I'll get an opportunity to drive it.

By the way, have you ever herped Jonathan Dickinson State Park? I did when I was there in March, but I only saw a few Racers and a couple of gators. It was a pretty neat place though.

Mustangrde1 · 04-13-04, 05:32 AM

SDSP is a fun place to go herping. The roads out and around the big O are always a good place to look be careful some of these roads are private property access roads. If your up to a little drive there are some real good roads off SR 70 near Highlands county and a few more in In northern Ockeechobee off Sr 68 /441 around Fort Drum. If you ever have time when your down here i could take you out on them.

Ive ran in to several fish and wildlife and sheriff's officers lately while out road running so best to not mess with the hots unless you have your Fl VRL. Also rmember molesting gators or gopher torts will get you in a world of trouble no touch rule on those.

shaggybill · 04-13-04, 08:07 AM

Thanks for the info. I didnt realize there was a no touch rule on Gopher torts. When I was at JDSP, there was one out by the road, and I was moving it around for better pics. Good thing that Wildlife Officer didnt drive by at that moment. He didnt seem too nice of a guy.

Oh yeah, which park is SDSP? I am racking my brain, but its not coming to me.

Mustangrde1 · 04-13-04, 04:58 PM

Um should have been JDSP do to lack of coffee and early damn hour it was misspelled. Juan hadn't brewed yet lol. I wish they made an alarm clock that just released coffee straight in to your vein.

herpetological · 04-13-04, 11:08 PM

I worked on a study there in the early 80's on Sceloporus (Scrub Lizards.) They seem to frown on any disturbance in regards to herps these days. Still a good place to look. Quite a few upland scrub species.

AlexPan · 04-13-04, 11:52 PM

I thought we as herpers, are SUPPOSED to preserve nature, educate people about nature, and most inportanly NOT go out and catch the snakes ( or any other animal) just so some one can look at them at their house!!! I am sooo pissed at some people here! I will work and do my best in letting the authorities know (including the police) about the things that are being done, and more importantly by who!

Every one, preserve nature! Leave it the way you found it! NEVER take anything from the wild! In last month i have seeing numerous desterbing posts in which people said they take them home to take pictures, or even to keep! Am i not wright? Should we just go ahead and take what we want untill there is nothing left to take? This is such a shame to see people to see so many people going and catching the snakes as if there were some kind of toys!

Julliet · 04-14-04, 01:12 AM

ok Alex......I think I might have an opinion to give here. While there are some out there that do rape the land not everyone does. In fact people such as Ray gushaw do return animals to the wild and replace things that they take. Now as far as leaving everything where it is....um I take it you live in a house or some type of housing. Where you are now living was once home to a multitude of creatures by having that apartment or house built you have ruined part of thier habitat. Doing that you have also taken away viable land which was being used for food ,breeding etc. As in the case of deer overcrowding occurs when habitats are shrunk due to developement. this causes a major strain on the remaining wilds to be able to support the wildlife. Not to mention the quality of the wildlife . I have seen deer starve to death due to the fact that the remaining forrests could not support the amount of animals who were forced to cram in there due to developement of the land. Now hunting while some consider barbaric is actually a great form of conservation . it thins out the herd so they can better survive in the diminishing wild lands. Here in Florida I see the same thing happening with the alligator as well as the florida panther . I have also seen it with certain snakes such as the eastern diamond back . If taking a few animals out of the wild so that many can and will survive I see no harm. That is not to mean to wipe out a population however , carefull harvesting will help the remaining populations survive and thrive in the remaining wild that humans allow them to have. So while you are on that soap box ...how about educating people not to wipe out entire forrests for houses or clubs?

Also as a side note......ummm those california king snakes you breed? I do believe that they came from snakes that were taken from the wild as well as all of the animals you breed...including those cute little madagascar hissing roaches. While they may now be captive bred they origonated in the wild correct? sssooooo how about returning them to the wild?

lowrider2004 · 04-14-04, 02:57 AM

So Julliet what your saying, it isn't illeagal to take wild life from there habitat?, i'm not on anybody's side but just wondering if it is illeagal?

I have took a few gardner snakes and alligator lizards home but put them back after a few hour's of looking at them and seeing what they do.

KrokadilyanGuy3 · 04-14-04, 04:55 AM

Being illegal would depend on the place, animal and person collecting. Here for the most part you just need a wildlife collecting permit or a hunting/fishing permit. Some animals you can't touch unless you are a "Degreed" scientist that is permited.
It all depends.

Also, Catching keeping then releasing isn't always a good idea..

~Xain

Mustangrde1 · 04-14-04, 05:47 AM

Alex. It is perfectly legal to collect reptiles here in Florida with a few exceptions. We also have permits that one must posses to own certain numbers and or species. If you do not like field collecting then do not do it. http://myfwc.com/permits/

Many of us however do enjoy it and do far more conservation work then anyone could imagine. Just Curious how many times have you got out and helped build new or restore" Upland or Riparian habitat " or worked helped clear a land for Marshland?

Some states have diffrent laws so you need to be aware of each states laws pertaining to reptile collection and ownership check your local DNR for information. Remember all reptiles in captivity once were from wild stock.

herpetological · 04-14-04, 09:33 AM

Ok here we go with the whole"box of worms" so to speak. First and foremost I am a conservationist. In addition I am a degreed Biologist. The specimens we collect go to research programs or facilities interested in working with a particular species. I agree that collecting pressure can and often does have an impact on certain species of herps. However, many species can sustain a harvest. As mentioned, due to habitat loss and destruction most appex predators are eliminated from the "food chain". When this happens the species which once had biological checks increase in number. The entire biological and ecological chain in S. Florida has sustained a change that may never be repaired. Certain areas still are safe from these impacts......But, for how long? I has been determined that many species are actually increasing in numbers due to habitat changes brought about by man. A good example is the area to the south of Lake Okeechobee. This area(Which consists of hundreds of square miles) was once a very important part of the Everglades. It was drained in the 1930's to make farm land. Species such as everglades rat snakes no longer exist there. The populations of Florida King Snakes, Scarlet King Snakes, Red Rat Snakes(Especially the Anerythristic color form) have expolded over the last 30 years. These species have been collected by commercial collectors for many years. In one season back in the early 80's over 10,000 Florida Kings were collected. When this was heard everyone was up in arms! However, it has been proven that this species not only can sustain a harvest but, that it was beneficial to the overall health of the population. Now, before we get off on a different topic.......I'd like to point out that I am a firm supporter of Captive breeding and will always recommend that a person select C.B. over wild caught specimens. I also, do not condone overcollection of a species. The biggest impact by far is habitat destruction, loss and modification done in the name of progress. Yes, we did collect quite a few snakes while we were in the field. However, we carefully selected which specimens we wanted to keep and work with. We set limits and once those limits were reached we only removed snakes from the roadway to keep them from being killed. While we were there the water levels were extremely low. Population densities of some species especially alligators were very high. (As many as 200 per 1/2 mile) Why? Because it was in mans interest to install drainage canals and water controls structures to keep the multimillion dollar golf courses and condos dry! These were within 1/2 mile from the main swamps edge. I saw over 10,000 acres being cleared on just 3 projects! Please by all means lets blame the collectors who catch a few snakes for the population loss! The alligators were cannibalising each other. Why? for one habitat loss and modification. The second reason.....Because, there is no controlled harvest to keep the population in check. we have created this problem! It's wonderful that the protection programs have allowed alligators to come back as strong as they have. Here's our choice....Allow controls to keep the population at a healthy level or plow over the condos and golf courses and restore them to swamps! I'm for the latter!!! This whole argument on collecting wild caught specimens is circular in nature to begin with. Every species that is bred in captivity today at one time came from wild caught blood lines. (Again. remember that I do support captive over wild caught any time there is an option!) You could also, support the PETA mandate. They are against anyone having pets. OF ANY KIND! Yes I do support and collect limited numbers of wild caught species. However, I also spend about $20,000.00 per year rehabing and rescuing herps! There are pros and cons to both sides and both sides have some valid points. However, if you live in a house, eat food, drive a car, keep any pet.....You have been just as guilty if not more so. All these things have had an impact directly or indirectly on the environment. On the other hand if someone is illegaly collecting a rare, threatened or endangered species for commercial gain then by all means throw the book at them!! "It reminds me of that quote,"People in glass houses..." If you want to do something then by all means get out of the chair and become active in conservation or protection programs. Instead of pointing a finger , research the topic then come up with active solutions. Collecting sustainable species in the wild is not the number one cause of declines by any stretch of the imagination. It IS a small fraction of the problem but, that's only in cases where you have an uneducated, greedy person doing it for nothing more than commercial gain. Last but, not least.....Many of the water snakes will be released on a 5,000 acre wetland that is being created locally. It was filled in years ago for cattle ranches and orange groves. Sorry about any errors in grammar or spelling.... I just get a little irritated when someone makes snap judgements without all the facts. A simple question such as, "I was wondering why you collected these species, is it legal, does it hurt the populations in the wild and what will be done with the surplus specimens.....Well you get my point! SORRY! Ray G. HBR

Mustangrde1 · 04-14-04, 05:28 PM

Very well said Ray. I think it is important though since conservation was brought up to say there are many outstanding groups out there that do conservation work every day. A few that I belong to and that i can say are well wourth joining are Ducks Unlimited. Delta Waterfowl. National Wild Turkey Federation. Quail Unlimited. Of course there are more but these groups put there Money,Blood and sweat where there mouth is. They are the ones trying to fight habitat loss and in fact are purchasing thousands of acres to restore lost habitat.

As for the threat of calling police lol. WANT THE NUMBERS I am sure our local officers would love comming over to see my animals again. As 1 of the laws in Florida if you keep Venomous you MUST BE INSPECTED. That meens a visit from the Officers to the place you keep them {ie} your house or bussiness. As I have stated before my Local Police and Fire Dept know what I keep. WHY?Because in the event of an emergency if they need to make entry they know what room to stay clear of for their safety. My neibors also know what I keep how? Because one of their sons is Capt with Florida Fish and Game. Also nice because instead of just killing any snake they see as they use to they now call me for removal LIVE.

Julliet · 04-15-04, 03:50 AM

Lowrider,
In some cases and places it is indeed illegal to take wildlife out of the wild. As mustangrde has said if you wish to harvest venomous you have to have the proper permits here in florida. Also there are national parks from which you may not harvest as well.
Some species are protected and should never be moved from the habitat unless the animals life is indangered and then it is best to leave it up to the rehab experts so the animals may be returned to the wild,
I am one who has harvested animals out of the wild on occasion as well as given some homes that have litterally shown up on my doorstep. I have also repopulated a few places which have been depleted due to the destruction of a habitat for developement that was then allowed to lay dormant because the money had run out.
I also have enjoyed the rare privalige to have seen these animals thrive and survive in thier new homes.
I also consider it a privalige to have met and know people like Ray gushaw who does rehabing of these animals as well as returning some of them to the wild. Not everyone harvests solely for profit.....however there are some that due. But like everything else people tend to onely see one side of the coin.

SCReptiles · 04-15-04, 09:32 AM

Few things aggravate me more then a hypocrite. AlexPan, where in the blue hell you do you think those snakes you keep came from? No one who keeps any type of animal has a right to question field collecting, because that is where they all came from. It’s just like the vegetarian that wears leather shoes. Threatening to call the police? Just when I thought you could not look any more stupid, you go and surprise me. Do you really think we would get on the internet and brag if we were breaking any laws? You think just cause you are an idiot that everyone is? Ray took a lot of time and effort to try and reach you, but I think he wasted his time. Even if he drew you a picture I doubt you would get it. Herpiculture began with us, collecting, studying, and breeding. Without us, there would be no herpiculture, herpetology, ssnakess.com, etc. It never fails to piss me off when people try to demonize the people who started the hobby they participate in.

BWSmith · 04-15-04, 10:40 AM

OK, let me give Chuck his Valium

I do know people that keep EVERY SINGLE snake they catch. I do not agree with these collection methods. I try to be a responsible herper and try to encourage it in others. If I am going herping, I generally have a short list of the animals that I need to add to the collection. Even then, I am very picky about the individuals. I am about full on hots, so I cannot really see taking much from the wild this year with the exception of an adult female Dusky Pyg (no males, I dont want any breeding).

But I also think that your location has something to do with your stong opinions. I will make the assumption that you have never been herping in the southern US. Eventually you get sick of kicking water snakes and Cottonmouths off the road.

In order to be responsible, you really have to know the snakes and their status in certain areas.

By the same token, there are certain species that just should not be collected by the average or above average herper. They just have too rigid of care requirements. A couple that come to mind are Mud Snakes, Rainbow Snakes, Crawfish Snakes, and Queen Snakes.