Just Realized I Have a Moral Problem with Feeding Live

[Zoe]

live prey has more nutritional value then something that has been killed who knows when and frozen for who knows how long.

Well sure, if you buy junk that's been frozen for 6 months. But fresh killed and recently frozen is still fine. Oh, and just btw, my snakes all constrict like psychos when they strike. Maybe its because I yank the tail a few times to put up some sort of resistance for them. But yeah, I do agree, that snakes need to constrict.

WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals.

Following this logic, you would rather live in trees, killing things with sticks and eating raw meat and bugs, constantly under watch by cougars and whatnot? Oh, and no need to get vulgar :S

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface.

There are two major differences. The first is the danger to the snake, which is obvious. The second in the rodent itself. Obviously if you don't care if it suffers or not then this difference has no importance to you. But I don't believe they should die in pain, just because you anthropomorphize your snakes.

Get a dog, cat, bird..etc. I mean we as humans eat meat...and millions of animals are killed each year so we can dine on the best beef...chicken etc. So whats the difference...

As stated, it happens in the wild that animals kill each other. But in the wild prey also has a chance of getting away. I don't think they have that in captivity, do they? And about slaughter houses... what, you think I want to go there and watch just for fun? Of course not! I am completely against the way they are killed! I do eat meat (not much of it, mind you), and I assure you if I could afford a farm and could breed my own cattle they would die humanely.

Of course the wellfare of my snake comes before that of the rodent. If I cared more about the rodents and owned rats, well that would a little weird :P. But I do care about the rodent as well.

I guess all of this has to do with whether or not you care about the rodents, because you are obviously aware of the dangers of feeding large live rodents (a step in right direction, no?)

Zoe

[ReptiZone]

I did not read any of the reply's caus I am so dame mad at you.

sure it was not tastful to watch if you dont like what you see dont watch it leave the room now this is not the advice I would normaly give but we are talking about a pinky here and then next time try F/T. but now you stresed it out to the max and may never eat a pinky again and now you will be forced to feed it through a pinky press. CONGRATULATIONS and I dont care if I ofend you or not that was just a act of plain stupidaty that is like me puling out the hamburger right from your teeth.and then you flushed it so it would drown like that is a better way to die you made it suffer more buy wasing it and then flushing it. that is like me saving you from a shark then giving you a bath and then holding you under water. or was it just more humane cause YOU dident see it sufer. would it have kiled you to give your snake the extra time to finish the job it started and have the meal.
I am soory but that just discuseted me not only did you kill the pinky but you wasted it every thing I kill get eaten I never wast a thingI havent flushed a rodent in over 2 years.

[red bootz]

Snake owner's complaining about killing something....interesting.

[Oliverian]

.... I really don't think you guys need to get so mad. She already explained that it was a mistake and she'd never do it again, so she learned something. I'm sure we've all made our share of stupid mistakes. And I understand where she's coming from, feeling sorry for the animals. Ladyhawk, you WILL get used to it, but it is hard at first. It was a stupid mistake, but you've learned. That's why we're here. You guys don't need to ream her out, thats the kind of thing that makes some of us not want to come back. She knows that she was wrong in doing that, and knows never to do it again, and thats all there is to it. I really am glad that the snake started eating again. Good luck in the future. ~TR~

[mk-ultra]

WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals.

Following this logic, you would rather live in trees, killing things with sticks and eating raw meat and bugs, constantly under watch by cougars and whatnot? Oh, and no need to get vulgar :S

Well I have heard funny stuff but that has to be one of the worst thing I saw here ...

How about we put Zoe in a cage to keep her from the danger of living with other wild human animals ......... think about it ...

Johnny.

[Mr.Lizard]

First off ,Ladyhawk,I sympathize with you...I don't agree,but I sympathize. It was a panicked move and most of us have done something we realized we shouldn't have after our panic subsided. In retrospect I'm sure you agree.
As a kid I always fed live and as a kid and saw nothing wrong with it. In fact it was interesting to watch.
I no longer feed live with the exception of crickets. Not because I believe it is wrong to feed live. I just believe that mercy should be used when dealing with food items that are capable of feeling fear and pain...especially to the degree mammals do.
I once had a horrible experience feeding a large mouse to a tegu who was eating mice that were smaller and easy to dispatch.
The mouse was not subdued and killed immediately as were the smaller mice before him. The tegu just took the mouse's front leg,ate it,and then went back for seconds as the poor creature ran around the cage on three legs screaming.
Belive me,I wanted to rescue that mouse but I realized it was too late and he would have suffered more if I had managed to get him out of the cage rather than leave him to the tegu.
That turned me off on live feedings although it wasn't the last time I fed live. I just took greater care to ensure the prey did not suffer a similar agony as that mouse did.
Someone once said "Maturity is the ability to feel someone Else's suffering". Or something very close to that.
Anyways,what I'm saying is that if you can minimize suffering in any given situation then it is the responsible thing to do so.
A snake or lizard will strike at a stunned rat that is still twitching.
Your herp is relatively safe from being hurt from the prey animal and the prey animal is probably unaware of either pain or fear yet still capable of triggering a feeding response in the snake or lizard.

[Zoe]

So MK, basically you are saying that worst thing you've ever seen, is me saying that saying that a snake would rather live in the wild in all sorts of danger than is safe captivity is comparable to saying that a human would rather live in the jungle in the trees, in similar dangers? You have lived a sheltered life, my friend!

If I was in constant danger of predators and possibly cannibalism, extreme temps, drowning, storms, etc, not sure where my next meal would come from, then I think I would like to stay in a suitable caged environment, all my needs being met? I dunno, maybe I cherish health and safety over freedom (and maybe I'm just lazy!)

and yeah, lay off LadyHawk. Have you never made a stupid mistake chondro? You make 50 of them in every post you write (I'm refering to spelling, not to your knowledge of snakes)! She thought her snake was choking! If you didn't know, and you thought your snake was DYING, would you still have left it? And if you had read everything, you would have seen she did not drown or waste that pinky.

Zoe

[lordkovacs]

chondro, easy there killer. those are some harsh words man. people come on this forum because they want to share their experiences and hopefully learn from them. when you share, you let your guard down. lady. let her guard down, and you stomped on it. this site is for support...not whatever it is you did. as I posted earlier, and I'm sure she'd agree, she made a mistake. nowhere is there anything in any caresheet or book that says anything about not pulling out a mouse by the tail... obviously for someone experienced it's a no brainer, but that's how you learn. I realize you should know about the snake b4 buying it, but not everything can be read from a book. I really don't think this snake is traumatized for life as you make it seem. I remember when I was around 6 I tried to eat some chicken off the grill and burned my hand badly... did I stop eating for the rest of my life? sure, I"m human and can understand more then a snake can...but snakes have instincts... instincts to eat. It will eat again I imagine (unless there really is something that prevented it from eating the first time...) Actually Lady, would you let us know when it eats next? I would be interested in knowing that. Have you not made any mistakes chondro? have you not let your guard down and sought advice from those more experienced? You probably have. And when you did, did you get a lashing ? If so, how did you feel? If you didn't, then I guess you are luckier then Lady was. too bad.
Lady, you learned from your mistake...it's not the worst thing in the world. This snake relies on you, and I'm sure you'll do everything to make it all better. Good luck,
MIKE

[Invictus]

Spoken like a true gentleman, Mike. And I agree... when someone admits to a mistake, we should not be jumping down their throats. We were all newbies at one time, right?

[lordkovacs]

exactly... it's a support community.

[LadyHawke]

just makin sure people realize there are 2 Ladyhawks here....one with an E and one without!!

[Andy_G]

My opinion is that it was not the best thing to do in regards to either the mouse or the snake. Maybe if you need to feed live prey again, leave the room and don't watch it. I don't like to see anything killed or kill anything either but the pinkie will die without milk anyways...

[lordkovacs]

perhaps buying fresh killed would be a happy medium?

[Oliverian]

Anyway, the milksnake suffered no lasting effects that I can tell and the tortured pinkie met a quick death in the end. The milksnake is eating fine. She's a trooper, obviously. I'm relieved she survived my mistake

Just letting you guys know that the snake is fine. I noticed many of you missed this the first time around, and I had to go back and check a second time, too. Glad you got it to eat, Ladyhawk. Again, good luck in the future. ~TR~

[PoiSoNouS]

zoe,
I think the point is... snakes that have always been in captivity doesnt know that they are more "secure" in their little cages,
and I do not think they are happy in there, the proof is that they always look to escape...
and im saying "secure" because its not less than a trap... what if a fire starts in your house.. they will die trapped in their "secured" cage... and no way to escape because WE decided to keep them "secure"
Life is a risk, even in our world, we still have predators, but we have put ourself in a cage since we destroyed our environement and built our cities... now the only predators we have is ourselves...
considering what we are doing to ourselves and our planet, YEAH I would rather live in the jungle with wild animals than live with other humans...

even after years of captivity snakes will never loose their instincts... they are built for the kill and will always be.... we cannot get this out of them and people who are keeping them as pet should know it.. and respect them for this... trying to change snake's nature for our own pleasure... is it right ? I dont think so..

I do agree about f/t food is good, to keep your snake out of danger and scars...
But I dont agree about people who is making it bad to give live prey to the snake, knowing that they are built for this... how hard is it, when you give it to them, to see when it is not hungry and take it out ???

Maybe this snake didnt knew how to get it down right, but I do think he could have managed to get it down anyway, even if he had to threw it up and try again..
I had few snakes that caught the pinkies by the side and managed to swallow it in this position to..
go look and see the epicrates forum, I recall clownfishie who gave a huge rat to her boa, and yeah he took it down !!!! never underestimate your snakes,
They will always impress me..

Ladyhawk, I can understand your act, knowing that you are new to snakes we all do mistakes, I just hope next time will be a good one