Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+discuss

[bigsnakegirl785]

BallBuster, my issue does not lie with having an equation. My issue is that your regimen is power feeding. If having a percentage helps you to care for your animals, then great. Just keep in mind, that boas are not built to eat the same amount of food throughout the year, and be willing to adjust feeding during winter months or if your snakes become too chunky. I would also space out your feedings by a lot more than your current frequencies. If you're going to feed larger meals, you need to be feeding them even less often than what I normally suggest.

I personally prefer mid-sized meals, because if you feed this big huge meal to a boa, but space it out properly for them to digest the entire meal before eating again, that snake is not getting enough nutrition long term.

Alternatively, if you feed those big meals and you feed them too often, that snake is not getting enough time to fully digest their meal, and will be getting an influx of nutrition higher than they can properly deal with. A whole rat 10-15% of a boa's weight has more proportionate nutrition for a snake than an entire meal from a fast food restaurant would have for a person.

This is why, if I feed a larger-than-normal meal, I first wait extra long to offer the next meal, and then offer a smaller meal and wait the normal amount of time. The smaller meal and extra wait time offers balance to the overload of calories and fat that larger meal offers, but then they're also having normal sized meals and normal wait times between meals after that, so that they aren't going too long between meals. They make the most use out of the entire meal, without causing excess fat storage, which cannot always be determined by viewing them from the outside.

As far as a Suriname, BCC are a lot more sensitive to feeding mistakes than B(C)I are. They are much more prone to regurgitation if fed too much, or fed too fatty of prey items. Some individuals can handle it better, so it may just come down to fitness of their genes: maybe some lines are more hardy when it comes to feeding than others. But, the common theme I see concerning BCC is to feed them smaller meals more sparingly. Not more.

I have also weighed a fair bit of my prey items, and I get my prey items from sources that sell their feeders based off of weight. I have a pretty good idea of what I feed my snakes, and it is nowhere near what you feed your's. I have not yet kept a constrictor (besides my retic) that needs significantly more food than I feed my boa constrictors. All of my snakes get meals equal to or less than their girth on average. Sometimes they may get slightly larger meals, but besides in the beginning when I didn't know any better, I have never fed 1.5x the girth to any of my snakes (besides my retic).

For the past 4 years, I have fed my 6.5', 8.5-9 lb boa regular large rats (150-275 grams on average and largest I've had was 290 grams) and 1/4-1/2 lb rabbits. He gets 8-9 meals a year. That's 1,017-2,610 grams of food a year, which is 24-63% of his weight yearly, going off of his last recorded weight of 4,144 grams. That's based off the smallest weight of 113 grams (1/4 lb rabbits) if I fed that every single meal 9 times a year, and the heaviest weight of 290 grams if I fed that 9 times a year. He does not need more than that. Now, my female gets even less than that, considering she's quite a bit heavier than him, but gets similar-sized meals. I've only had her about 1.5 years now, though, so I am still tweaking feeding with her to find what's right for her.

My growing babies, on the other hand, do get more food. The first 9-11 months I'm normally feeding hopper mice (7-12) grams, at which point I have seen them sitting at 145-170 grams. The rest of the year they will be on weaned/small adult mice (12-17 grams). That is a little harder to reliably guess percentage of weight, since they at least double their weight during this time. But, those meals sit at 6-8% of their weight, on average. The largest I've ever fed to my young boas was 11%, but that was balanced out with an extra 2 weeks before feeding them again, and then their normal-sized meals afterwards. Assuming they got 6-8% the entire year, and ate exactly 26 times a year (that's on a biweekly schedule, I don't feed my boas weekly, ever), that's maybe 156-208% of their weight in that first year. If I'm correct in thinking you can just multiply 6-8% by 26 meals. If a different equation should be used someone let me know, I haven't taken math classes in a couple of years. XD

So, yes, baby boas do need more food, and I do give it to them...but 4x their weight a year? And for adults, too? Sorry, not buying it.

Originally Posted by BallBuster7653

Also boaGirl I am not about power feeding or getting thjem to grow fster t atll!!! I want a alrge snake but just s far as genetics and a good feeding regimen give, nothing more. BUt your saying by suriname after a year should be 2.5- 3 ft? hes 3 months old I think hes 28" they were feeding hoppers weekly...so IM guesssing 28" 3 months old? or is he older thn that? Hes 28" and 100 grams exactly. 1/2" girth. I would relly lik to be exct with when he ws born but of course LLreptile isnt sure. ..but anyway hes already almost 2.5 ft anf he cant be anywhere near a year old can he?

IM tinking...now hes 28" im thinking/estimating this:

now 28"- a year from now 4 ft
then 5 ft 2 ears from now.... 6ft from 3 years from now and in about 5 years i would hope for a 7 ft 10-15 pounds nice adult male suriname...thats my estimate..

but i base my feedings by their weight every month I record their weight girth and length and adjust to my regimen.

Whether or not you realize it, the feeding regimen you are utilizing would be considered power feeding. It well beyond their metabolic need for food, and will quickly catch up to them.

It is very easy to get a snake overweight, and when care sheets and websites are throwing out these humongous weights for snakes...yeah, it can be difficult to tell your boa is overweight. If you think 30 lbs for a 6' boa is normal, or 50-60 lbs for an 8-footer, you're not going to be worried that you're feeding too much. I have even seen a 6' boa as heavy as 60 lbs, 6x or more the normal, healthy weight you'd expect for a boa of that size. No amount of exercise or warmer temperatures can make up for that gross amount of overfeeding. Snakes are incredibly, incredibly good at packing on weight, not so good at losing it.

As far as a guess on his age...really no way to tell. Boas are born at different sizes, and grow at different rates. If LLLReptile bred that snake and saw the birth in their facility, I see no reason to doubt its age. If they are not sure, then there is literally no way to even guess his age. He could be 3 months, he could be a year, could be 1.5 years.

BCC are generally considered slow growers, so 4' at 1 year, 5' at 2 years, and 6' by 3 years is some insane growth. You can get them to grow faster than that, but not by much. A boa does not need to reach 6' by 3 years old, and I'd argue growth like that is unhealthy, especially considering the feeding regimen being used in your case. I don't expect any of my boas to reach 6' before 5-6 years old, and they still have the chance to get 7'-8'+ with time, if they are meant to get that large.

You may find this podcast interesting (sorry, I don't think they have a translated version, but here it is if you want to give it a listen).

As far as breeding, I think you're going to run into a lot of heartbreak and problems if you try breeding a female feeding her the way you're currently doing. As I mentioned elsewhere, overweight/obese boas are at a higher risk of not breeding, slugging out, or dying while gravid. Some females make it through, but most of the instances I've seen of snakes dying from obesity have been currently gravid females. It is especially risky for them than a male or non-breeding female to be fed so heavily.

[BallBuster7653]

thank you Bignsnakegirl....Your absolutely right. After doing some research on specifically boas I am now seeing and understanding what your talking about. I will start being more mindful and watch my boa closely. I am much too used to burms and retics and I need to be patient and careful. I have read alot about regurgitation issues and prey thats too large. I am starting to question myself now. which is always good. I will say I absolutely need lot of work on my formula and especially how to type it out and make it comprehensible to others the way I comprehend it. So Ill definitely put that work into it and bring it back at some point. Thanks everyone a lot for their input.

SO now bck t my baby boy. at 100 grams and 28" how old is he?

Also im giving him a hopper 15(g) a week as of now...30 g bi weekly which is about my 1/3 rule but less often for him so I dont go more often than 1x a week for now. Ill switch to 1/4 when hes 4 ft.....for now unles things change...

[BallBuster7653]

I see whats your saying , I just need an estimation of his birthday....So im gonna go with 6 months old. Just gonna make his birthday Halloween so I can remember it. Wish I knew for sure but there it is. Hes shedding right now...just beginning to loose his opaque look so im not handling and spraying him down with warm water and soaking him everynight. Probably by Thursday he will shed.


Wow so now I feel like a newbie to Boas lol. I guess technically I am. I have never owned one snake more than 3 years. Mostly because of my life but now things are settling down and I would like to commit to one or 2serpents I have lost a lot of memory too since my accident so it almost seems like I am starting fresh. Its almost like I have to relearn things or at least refresh I appreciate everyone's help.

[BallBuster7653]

Big snake girl...If you wouldn't mind, I would really like your generl estimate of wht you would feed my male Suriname at 28" and 6 months old at 100 grams now how often and how much...and then maybe sy for the next year or 2 estimating growth, im curious

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by BallBuster7653

Big snake girl...If you wouldn't mind, I would really like your generl estimate of wht you would feed my male Suriname at 28" and 6 months old at 100 grams now how often and how much...and then maybe sy for the next year or 2 estimating growth, im curious

6 months seems a pretty good guess, if LLLReptile isn't 100% sure of the snake's birthdate.

Now, 100 grams seems awfully light for a 28" boa (that's about 50+ grams lighter than my boas of the same length), but if both your length and weight are correct, I would most likely go with either a hopper mouse (7-12 grams) or a small/weaned mouse (13-18 grams). Whichever is closer to the snake's girth while leaving a barely noticeable bulge.

I suggest these two sizes because my boas were eating hopper mice at 100 grams, but were eating small/weaned mice at 28". You will just have to feed them, and see which one is more appropriately-sized. If he was a little bit heavier I'd go ahead and say do 6-10% of his weight, but if he's on the thinner side that may not result in large enough prey.

I wouldn't feed him meals 1/3-1/4 of his weight his meal every time you fed him, and I'd wait a minimum of 3-4 weeks after offering those big meals before you feed him again. and feed the smaller 6-10% a couple of times before offering another larger meal. I'd normally feed a boa of that age every 2 weeks, so an extra week or a skipped feeding day comes out to 3-4 weeks.

How fast he will grow completely depends on how you continue to feed him. If you continue to feed him 1/3-1/4 of his weight, every meal, he could easily reach 5'-6'+ in the next 2 years. If you fed closer to how I feed, I would expect closer to 3'-4'.

[MichaelRobinson]

Feed your baby boa ONCE A WEEK. Big snake girl loves to tell people to feed a GROWING YOUNG boa sparingly but, any expert will tell you ONCE A WEEK. THIS IS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD. After one year feed every 10 to 14 days and through adulthood and as an adult, feed your boa " a meal that leaves a mild sized lump once every two to three weeks" (Vin Russo)

Heads up to the snake starvers: If you tell me that Vin Russo is wrong and you're right, i will probably just laugh.

[phenyx]

Ok, I have to say something. As a newbie who came to this site trying to learn how to feed my snakes, this constant arguing (and now, apparently, name calling) about feeding regimens across MULTIPLE threads is doing nothing but raising more confusion and stress and anxiety.

My baby BP skipped a feeding last week. She ate last night, but OH NO it was two weeks between feeds so is she starving because of it? No, I've been assured, she's not because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

My baby BRB has eaten exactly 2 pinkies (2 gms each) since I got him 4 1/2 weeks ago. OMG, is he starving to death? No, I've been assured, he's not because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

I read a thread from several years ago in which a baby CRB went a couple of months without eating a thing. Was it starving to death? No, because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

So if snakes are built to go weeks/months without food and survive just fine, how is it that BSG is "starving" baby snakes by feeding them every two weeks instead of every week? It doesn't track and is contradictory to everyone who told me that my baby BRB wouldn't starve to death if he missed 2, 3, 4 feedings while he was settling in.

I may not have much experience feeding snakes, but I do understand simple logic. If a baby snake can survive just fine without eating for several weeks/months while it settles in then it can most certainly survive just fine being fed every 14 days instead of every 7.

Obviously, none of BSGs boas have starved to death and even a newbie like me can tell from the pictures that they're *not unhealthy*.

We're all adults here. Name calling is juvenile and belongs on the playground.

[MichaelRobinson]

youre presenting a straw man argument. I never said a snake missing meals will starve I said that a young boa needs to be fed every week. missing a meal is one thing, missing 26 meals in the first year because you skip every week is another. your post about snakes missing meals settling in is irrelevant to this thread.

[phenyx]

Originally Posted by MichaelRobinson

I never said a snake missing meals will starve

Your exact words, and the name you called BSG, were "snake starver".

Other than that, all you've done is scream "feed every 7 days because Vin Russo says so!". So I googled him. I found no articles written by him detailing feeding regimens for boas anywhere on the web (including on his own commercial website!) That was unexpected considering you passed him off as the Be All, End All ultimate authority on Boa care. He doesn't even have care sheets on his website. Yes, he has a book on Boa care on Amazon, but there's a lot of boa care books Amazon.

What I did find online was this article. This is the exact first paragraph of the article:

"How often should the snake [boas] be fed? There is no general answer for this question. As mentioned previously, neonates [emphasis is mine] must not be fed more often than once every 10 to 14 days (must, not should!)." (The second paragraph did say to go to weekly feedings every week during the snakes second year, but I'm assuming that's a proportionally appropriate food amount split into 4 monthly feedings instead of 2. Hello math.)

I also found this on another page of the site. I'm referring to the orange box with the heading "Important Note:" TL;DR version: It talks about rampant overfeeding and obesity in pet boa constrictors and supports everything Big Snake Girl has said on that subject.

So after reading all this, and after reading BSG's thread that went into minute detail and photos regarding her feeding regimen for each of her beautiful, healthy animals as well as her other posts detailing why she feeds that way, I'm far more inclined to follow her instructions with my BRB (which were to feed every 7-10 days) than yours.

[TeamSlitherin]

Originally Posted by phenyx

Your exact words, and the name you called BSG, were "snake starver".

Other than that, all you've done is scream "feed every 7 days because Vin Russo says so!". So I googled him. I found no articles written by him detailing feeding regimens for boas anywhere on the web (including on his own commercial website!) That was unexpected considering you passed him off as the Be All, End All ultimate authority on Boa care. He doesn't even have care sheets on his website. Yes, he has a book on Boa care on Amazon, but there's a lot of boa care books Amazon.

What I did find online was this article. This is the exact first paragraph of the article:

"How often should the snake [boas] be fed? There is no general answer for this question. As mentioned previously, neonates [emphasis is mine] must not be fed more often than once every 10 to 14 days (must, not should!)." (The second paragraph did say to go to weekly feedings every week during the snakes second year, but I'm assuming that's a proportionally appropriate food amount split into 4 monthly feedings instead of 2. Hello math.)

I also found this on another page of the site. I'm referring to the orange box with the heading "Important Note:" TL;DR version: It talks about rampant overfeeding and obesity in pet boa constrictors and supports everything Big Snake Girl has said on that subject.

So after reading all this, and after reading BSG's thread that went into minute detail and photos regarding her feeding regimen for each of her beautiful, healthy animals as well as her other posts detailing why she feeds that way, I'm far more inclined to follow her instructions with my BRB (which were to feed every 7-10 days) than yours.

THIS!!! I am very sorry that your first exposure to this forum is the silly bickering that you have mentioned. I assure you this is not the norm. There is plenty of evidence to suggest over-feeding your snake will dramatically shorten its lifespan. There is a well-known breeder who had 10 female boas, all power-fed in order to get them to breeding size in 18 months. They all died by the age of 4. People don't think much about the effects of over-feeding their snakes because the damage is not as visible as something like scale rot. It's internal.

As for a baby boa "missing meals" for its first year...that's ridiculous. Boas in the wild aren't offered food every 7-10 days. I have a young Dumeril's Boa who, even as a baby, absolutely refused to eat any more frequently than 12-14 days. Then I spoke with a local breeder who told me he had a Dumeril's hatchling who didn't take it's first meal until it was 7 months old. 7 months. As Ziggy mentioned earlier, he had a ball python go off feed for an entire year with no ill effects. My Dumeril's is only a year and a half old and I'm lucky if she takes a meal every 3 weeks....then she'll fast for 8 more weeks.

Eventually, I just got another snake and he gets all her cast-offs In all seriousness, though, these feeding recommendations are irresponsible. I think the OP is realizing that, as well. And clearly, you have the deductive reasoning skills to come to your own proper conclusions about what's best for your animal. Kudos to you!

I hope your BRB continues to feed regularly, and that if he doesn't, you don't worry. As long as his husbandry is good, he won't starve himself. Because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

[TRD]

Many breeders feed their snakes to breeding size asap because for them it's business. Breed faster, morph loses less money. Sad but true. Following breeder feeding advise is not healthy in the long run. They basically push their animals to the limit of possibilities (seems to be a human trait to do that to about everything we interact with :P).

Boa's are infrequent feeders. Their bodies are made for this purpose, as is their digestive system. Large means, sometimes, like all Boidae and Pythonidae.

Large constrictors eat large prey, with a smaller relative mass to snake mass (ie- a juvenile may take a 40% of snake weight feeding, while an adult may take a 10% feeding (but would be a much larger feed)). See for example this study;
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wi...5.1998.00179.x

I laugh at people coming up with names of Breeders and believe those people who ignore reptile physiology. Literally all breeders I spoke to know little about the actual snake, and only know localities and morphs.

[TRD]

Another study, may interest you;
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/316734

About energy conservation during the fasting periods of infrequent feeding snakes.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MichaelRobinson

Feed your baby boa ONCE A WEEK. Big snake girl loves to tell people to feed a GROWING YOUNG boa sparingly but, any expert will tell you ONCE A WEEK. THIS IS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD. After one year feed every 10 to 14 days and through adulthood and as an adult, feed your boa " a meal that leaves a mild sized lump once every two to three weeks" (Vin Russo)

Heads up to the snake starvers: If you tell me that Vin Russo is wrong and you're right, i will probably just laugh.

That may be the industry standard, but it doesn't mean it's correct. I have said on multiple occasions that 7 days is perfectly acceptable up to 1 year old, just unnecessary.

On Vin Russo's advice...his podcasts, videos, and blogs more closely resemble the way I feed. I suspect that quote is from his book, which was published in 2007 and I've noticed his feeding regimen has changed somewhat. Based off of interviews I've seen and podcasts I've heard.

Also you need to keep in mind Russo also advises seasonal feedings...he advises fasting young boas (completely withholding food throughout the entire cold season), from their first winter, and feeding more heavily during the wet warm season. Most of the year, he's feeding his boas sparingly.

I personally wait until the boa has had their second winter before reducing feeding by half over the winter, and do not implement fasts until their 3rd winter. From there, I pick and choose if I fast or reduce feedings depending on body tone and whether or not I plan on breeding them.

He also advises in his book anywhere from 14-21 days, depending on the size of the meal, the snake's sex, and whether or not it's breeding that year. He also says monthly feeding for non-breeding (adult) pet boas to be acceptable. My feeding does not stray far from this, I just outline my feedings a little more precisely than he does for my younger boas.

Plus, the resources phenyx have provided you.

Originally Posted by phenyx

Ok, I have to say something. As a newbie who came to this site trying to learn how to feed my snakes, this constant arguing (and now, apparently, name calling) about feeding regimens across MULTIPLE threads is doing nothing but raising more confusion and stress and anxiety.

My baby BP skipped a feeding last week. She ate last night, but OH NO it was two weeks between feeds so is she starving because of it? No, I've been assured, she's not because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

My baby BRB has eaten exactly 2 pinkies (2 gms each) since I got him 4 1/2 weeks ago. OMG, is he starving to death? No, I've been assured, he's not because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

I read a thread from several years ago in which a baby CRB went a couple of months without eating a thing. Was it starving to death? No, because snakes are built to go weeks/months without food.

So if snakes are built to go weeks/months without food and survive just fine, how is it that BSG is "starving" baby snakes by feeding them every two weeks instead of every week? It doesn't track and is contradictory to everyone who told me that my baby BRB wouldn't starve to death if he missed 2, 3, 4 feedings while he was settling in.

I may not have much experience feeding snakes, but I do understand simple logic. If a baby snake can survive just fine without eating for several weeks/months while it settles in then it can most certainly survive just fine being fed every 14 days instead of every 7.

Obviously, none of BSGs boas have starved to death and even a newbie like me can tell from the pictures that they're *not unhealthy*.

We're all adults here. Name calling is juvenile and belongs on the playground.

They're worried about "stunting" the snake without truly understanding this species' needs. They are used to an industry where baby boas are being fed every 4-7 days, and adults every 1-2 weeks. When the vast majority of people are doing this, when literally any other pet we own has to eat at least a few times a day or per week, it can be difficult for people to understand just how little snakes need to thrive. Even owners who are used to the lowered food intake of snakes still tend to overestimate how much they need to feed them.

It can also be difficult to gauge what is healthy growth when:

1) growth is so extremely variable even within individuals in a litter

2) most people are vastly overfeeding their snakes, and as a result the average snake is growing much more rapidly than is healthy

Originally Posted by phenyx

Your exact words, and the name you called BSG, were "snake starver".

Other than that, all you've done is scream "feed every 7 days because Vin Russo says so!". So I googled him. I found no articles written by him detailing feeding regimens for boas anywhere on the web (including on his own commercial website!) That was unexpected considering you passed him off as the Be All, End All ultimate authority on Boa care. He doesn't even have care sheets on his website. Yes, he has a book on Boa care on Amazon, but there's a lot of boa care books Amazon.

What I did find online was this article. This is the exact first paragraph of the article:

"How often should the snake [boas] be fed? There is no general answer for this question. As mentioned previously, neonates [emphasis is mine] must not be fed more often than once every 10 to 14 days (must, not should!)." (The second paragraph did say to go to weekly feedings every week during the snakes second year, but I'm assuming that's a proportionally appropriate food amount split into 4 monthly feedings instead of 2. Hello math.)

I also found this on another page of the site. I'm referring to the orange box with the heading "Important Note:" TL;DR version: It talks about rampant overfeeding and obesity in pet boa constrictors and supports everything Big Snake Girl has said on that subject.

So after reading all this, and after reading BSG's thread that went into minute detail and photos regarding her feeding regimen for each of her beautiful, healthy animals as well as her other posts detailing why she feeds that way, I'm far more inclined to follow her instructions with my BRB (which were to feed every 7-10 days) than yours.

Thank you, I haven't been feeding my snakes this way for years (while still being quite active in multiple reptile communities, mind you) for no reason. I have experienced healthy, growing animals in my own collection, and have been seeing more and more evidence for a more mindful approach to feeding our snakes (not just boas, but that's where my interests mainly lie so that's what I focus on lol).

(I also suspect the weekly feedings during the second year to be advised because boas grow the most during their second year.)

[MichaelRobinson]

All i have to say is im leaving this forum. you guys and girls are so set in your ways and some of you (phenyx) are so numb to the boa world youve never heard of vin russo. talking to people on this forum is like talking to people about politics.

[MichaelRobinson]

oh and phenyx, vin russo IS the "Be All, End All ultimate authority on Boa care" just so you know.