Is this man being responsible with these hot snakes? - Page 3

Praireboyfarmer · 05-28-15, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

I don't know how many of the people who have posted here actually keep or handle venomous snakes, but I do. I keep and handle venomous snakes every day. There are many ways that may appear to be unsafe when handling a venomous snake, but with experienced keepers and handlers they are not. If it works for you,, then go with it. I may not agree with some of the things he does and I'm sure he would not agree with some of the things I do. One of the people he has trained, also has said that his ways may be careless but he told them to do what he teaches them and not what he does.

As a venomous keeper and mentor to some, there is never a completely safe way to handle a venomous snake, there is always a risk. Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself, are not hobbyist. We are professional keepers and handlers, so we look at what may be considered dangerous in a different light. I personally have to follow certain rules and regulations to keep my licenses, which helps to make me a little safer. My enclosures are keyed locked and only someone who is licensed can handle my venomous snakes. I know when I am performing one of my shows, I tell the audience that I'm not a daredevil and I wear HexArmor gloves and use snake sticks to help protect myself. I have no need to try and boost my ego or popularity as being a risk taker. I think Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself all feel, as Steve use to say, we do what we do so others will feel as passionate and love these animals as much as we do. You want to save things that you love.

When I asked this I was genuinely curious about the way he handles his snakes. It looked a bit reckless to me and I was curious as to if it was safe or not (Because incidentally I had actually seen your comment about "It may look reckless, but it's not".) It's obvious that the man is knowledgeable and very experienced (Though I personally don't care for his less than friendly attitude)

If I knew it was going to turn into a big argument on this thread I wouldn't have posted it as I do not want a bad reputation on these boards and am genuinely interested in stepping into the world of Herpetology.

Thanks.

MDT · 05-28-15, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praireboyfarmer

If I knew it was going to turn into a big argument on this thread I wouldn't have posted it as I do not want a bad reputation on these boards and am genuinely interested in stepping into the world of Herpetology.

Thanks.

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good

**Minkness** · 05-28-15, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good

Thanks for the LOLs!!

Also PBF,we have MUCH worse instigators than you running around here lol. I actually am glad you posted this. Debate is healthy for the most part, and honestly, this is one of the most 'tame' arguments Ive seen on here about something that is otherwise quite deviding in our hobby. =)

D Grade · 05-29-15, 01:03 PM

I think you guys are getting far to worked up about this and none of you making a big deal about it keep hots.

I have been watching Al's vids since December and have watched nearly every vid he has posted weekly since he started. I think he is one, if not the most responsible hot keeper that posts vids on You Tube. I also watch Jerry the snake man videos, both are incredibly skilled and knowledgable keepers who handle quite different (Jerry, you need to post more vids btw, I love your channel). Al uses hooks on all snakes and only tails when absolutely necessary. Jerry uses hooks and puncture proof gloves to actually hold the snake. Both work, both are risky but hey thats the risk you take by keeping hots.

As for Elvis (the King Cobra in that video), Al has developed his own relationship with that snake. Elvis is by far the most hard to handle snake in Al's collection and probably the most entertaining to subscribers of his channel. Is the video a bit of a show case, yes it may be. But Al knows that snakes actions, attitude, potential, and moods to a tee in person, we do not. Most people who know about hots know that Cobras for the most part are big bluffers. They hiss and false strike 90% of the time. Can they apply a 100% defensive full venom yield bit. Of course they can, but so can every other snake in Al's collection. Everyone who watched Al's channel knows Elvis always comes shooting out of his viv and he nips at Al's shoes for some strange reason. I would say if anyone has the capability of handling that snake, Al certainly does.

To boot, Al keeps a stock of antivenin in existance for all of his snakes he keeps. He is also a chemist by trade and knows a great deal about venom. I have learned more about venom on Al's channel in six months that I would have in a matter of years by researching on my own. The man knows what he's doing and the risk he's taking.

Im a bit worked up by this because I strongly feel you guys are over reacting to this. Al is being looked at in the same catagory as the idiots on youtube who put Easern Diamondback Rattlesnakes around their neck and hand feed Hairy Bush Vipers and I disagree with that 100%. Al has a deep understanding and care for his snakes and he handles them with care and respect at his own risk. He's been doing it since the 70's so one would think he knows what he's doing.

I do plan on keeping venomous some day and have learned a great amount of knowledge from Al and Jerry. I feel these guys are two prime examples of how to keep, care, and handle hots. Will I handle mine like they do, probably not. As with all species kept, everyone handles them differently. I would suggest that those of you who think Al is a reckless keeper watch many more vids on his channel and then come to that conclusion after a few more vids.

**Minkness** · 05-29-15, 01:39 PM

D, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's not an argument of if he's a good keeper or knowledgeable, but is it responsible to post it in a place children, inexperienced, non-respecting, and let's face it...idiots could view it and say 'I can do that!' Then get in trouble and shine a bad light on all of the community. Venomous or all reptiles included. It's not him, it's not his practices or how well he knows his animals, it's the other side of things.

reptiledude987 · 05-29-15, 02:08 PM

I completly with D Grade on this. I've been watching those videos for years. Anyone posting a video about anything cant control what viewers do with its content. if I watch about drift racing and write off my car i cant hold the the preson who posted the video responsibel for the damage to my car.

**Minkness** · 05-29-15, 02:24 PM

That is a valid point.

Not to get too political here, but I think alot of this stems from our fears of our own government.

Just like the latest lacey act thing. A few bad apples spoiled the bunch.

Not that we SHOULD, but we are.

Please understand that I say this loosely however.

D Grade · 05-29-15, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minkness

D, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's not an argument of if he's a good keeper or knowledgeable, but is it responsible to post it in a place children, inexperienced, non-respecting, and let's face it...idiots could view it and say 'I can do that!' Then get in trouble and shine a bad light on all of the community. Venomous or all reptiles included. It's not him, it's not his practices or how well he knows his animals, it's the other side of things.

I understand completely Mink, I really do. The posts of people here on SS of them posting pics free handling various Crotalus species without any protection what so ever that were deleted (followed by their bans on the forum) were completely just. I think thats what is unacceptable and damaging to our hobby. I dont think a highly experienced keeper letting one of his hots take a stroll in a confined place inside his house is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reptiledude987

I completly with D Grade on this. I've been watching those videos for years. Anyone posting a video about anything cant control what viewers do with its content. if I watch about drift racing and write off my car i cant hold the the preson who posted the video responsibel for the damage to my car.

Thanks for for that, and thats how I look at it exactly as well. Everyone has the opportunity to partake in a dangerous hobby. Racing, base jumping, sky diving, rock climbing, keeping hots, the list goes on. Its up to the individual to address the dangers and prepare accordingly. On top of this, Al does have a disclaimer at the beginning of every video he's posted which addresses this.

Jrich · 05-29-15, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways,
I've never watched any of these videos but after reading all the replies (some enlightening, some not so much) I'm definitely going to go check it out.

Ballchris · 05-30-15, 02:04 AM

go back and watch viperkeeper 101 its his first vid, he has been in hots for over 20+ years only bitten once in the 80's i think has worked all over with hots he knows what he is doing.

prairiepanda · 05-30-15, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Grade

On top of this, Al does have a disclaimer at the beginning of every video he's posted which addresses this.

That disclaimer is missing from this particular video, though. He does have a lot of great videos on his channel, and is often a good role model, but no matter how experienced he is I still find this specific video to be insanely reckless. Granted, I don't keep hots, but I wouldn't even deal with non-venomous snakes in such a manner as this. I don't know why this discussion became one about Al personally. What concerns me is this one video he made, not his usual stuff.

Also, I wouldn't say that letting Elvis out was really an issue. An experienced keeper who's very familiar with an individual snake can give them some roam time if they want. It was an enclosed environment, anyway, I assume. But leaving 3 enclosures open at once, all in separate lines of sight? That is NOT the same as having one familiar snake out for a closely-monitored stroll.

Pirarucu · 05-30-15, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

But leaving 3 enclosures open at once, all in separate lines of sight? That is NOT the same as having one familiar snake out for a closely-monitored stroll.

I believe that there's only two open at once, actually. The smaller King Cobra shown I believe is an older video of the first one.
Still, you're exactly right. He opened the Gaboon Viper cage and then promptly turned his back on it. When the camera pans back to the king, you can see that he's only two or maybe three feet away from the gaboon viper cage. If he's not in striking distance, it's only barely.

So let me pose a quick question to those defending him on the basis of his experience, as someone who tends to envision worst-case scenarios. What happens if the gaboon viper strikes and (assuming it doesn't land a bite then and there) consequently flops out of the cage onto the floor? He doesn't have any space to maneuver and stay out of the striking distance of both snakes. IMO, keepers should be entirely preventing the possibility of a bite during routine maintenance. Lots of hot keepers say that's not possible, and that you have to get hands-on with the animal at some point. And that's true, if you need to remove stuck eyecaps or fix some other medical issue. But preventing even the possibility of a bite during routine maintenance? Absolutely possible. Shift boxes exist for a reason. They reduce stress on the animal, and entirely remove the need to handle the animal during cage transfers or cleaning. Almost everyone uses them when it comes to large, fast elapids. But nope, VK feels the need to tail this Black Mamba and try to get it into a bucket instead... Starts at around 11:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xt799dWkAA

Also guys, let's be honest. His husbandry is questionable at best. He cohabs snakes. He keeps them in cages that are tiny for their size. He brings fresh imports in and sets them up in the same room as his existing collection. He has a crapload of videos showing stuck shed/eyecap removal, so his humidity is clearly not where it should be for some of the animals. A good portion of the cages have crap in them. Need I go on?
He does a lot of the things that we accept as bad husbandry, and since he's idolized it simply goes ignored.

Albert Clark · 05-30-15, 07:51 AM

I'm on your page Pirarucu. I always thought this reptile keeping was supposed to be a real hobby, a passion and a industry and not a circus run by a couple of clowns.

Albert Clark · 05-30-15, 07:56 AM

Also , a research and science based hobby that leads to the propagation and conservation of reptiles and amphibians.

bigsnakegirl785 · 05-30-15, 06:47 PM

I'm on the same page as Piracu. Doesn't also use heat rocks, or am I mistaken? I think in some of his older videos he did use them, but I've heard people say he doesn't nowadays.

Imho opinion no one should be getting comfortable or trusting in any way shape or form with any hot or even giant constrictors. Just because he knows what he's doing doesn't make what he does any smarter. And then to top it off, he tapes it for the masses to see. Sure, you can't control what people watch, but why would you post the kind of videos he does in the first place if you want to spread responsible handling? Disclaimers are not enough. They keep you from a lawsuit, but it doesn't keep a viewer from thinking they can do the same thing as what's portrayed in the video.