Herps you don't think should be kept as pets?

[FWK]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

First off I don't think there has ever really been an issue with venomous snakes escaping and killing people. There has been many cases of large snake escaping and killing people. That said, in NY I have to meet strict requirements as to the housing of my venomous snakes. They have to be in enclosures that are locked and labeled with warning signs as well as the snake common and scientific name. They have to be in an escape proof room, that is locked an a sign on the door stating there are venomous snake in the room. The DEC requires that I take pictures of all this and send it in with my license renewal each year.

I haven't heard any stories of people killed by escaped venomous either, it is almost always the keeper or handler who gets bit. I would like to see these "many" cases of people people killed by escaped giants though, I have read at least the media reports on every non-venomous snake related human fatality in this country in the last forty years and I do not recall a single instance of any other than the keeper or someone in the keepers home being killed.

It is a bit disappointing how quick the giant keepers are to point at venomous and say "those are what should be regulated!" and how quick the hot keepers are to point right back at the giants. We are all in the same boat people. If one goes the other will be quick to follow.

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Again, are you implying captivity PERIOD, which covers zoos, rescues, wildlife rehab centers, nature centers, etc....or just the average private citizen? I'll assume you just mean the latter.

In that case, crocodilians, hands down. Even the smallest species require more space and resources than most can reasonably provide, and realistically, most acquire them for the "cool" factor. Most species of crocodilians are protected in some form or fashion, and the average citizen should not be able to acquire any species.

Each state has their own laws, and I do understand some people have special trapping, gaming or educating licenses to "borrow" from farms or capture WC American alligators temporarily for relocation and for educational use. I don't have an issue with that, because such people are not actually keeping those gators in their homes. But being able to purchase a so-called "dwarf" caiman or Alligator in some of the northern states is ridiculous.

I mean private collections. Animals kept mainly for one's own personal enjoyment. Not conservation, eduction, agriculture etc.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by FWK

It is a bit disappointing how quick the giant keepers are to point at venomous and say "those are what should be regulated!" and how quick the hot keepers are to point right back at the giants. We are all in the same boat people. If one goes the other will be quick to follow.

I keep both venomous and giants. Both are regulated in NY and I have to have licenses for both. I was not pointing fingers, just stating some facts. Neither venomous nor the giants are allowed to be kept as pets any more.

[StudentoReptile]

This thread also begs the question/debate of rights vs privileges.

Since when did it become established that people felt they were entitled to own or possess any animal they please? [see various definitions for the word "right" (noun)]

Versus a privilege, which in reality, is what this is. We got this, free of charge, decades ago, but now, we've done a piss-poor job of maintaining it, and slowly, we're are getting these privileges taken away [Ex: take any recent state or federal legislative action against the possession of exotic pets or reptiles specifically].

Bottom line: you have a right to free speech, to an education, to food, water, shelter, to reproduce, to proper housing, to vote, to freedom (as opposed to slavery), etc. and so on. These are amenities and civil rights as a sentient being in a free world.

Everything else, such as cars (or specifically the license to operate one), guns, or pets, are luxuries. You do not require them to survive, and the first two, if not used properly, are (obviously) hazardous. Thus, a licensing system is in place, and if you abuse the privilege of owning and operating one, you get the privilege revoked (among other things).

It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well. Not only if you do not maintain the animal properly, there is a welfare issue to be considered, but if the animal is not securely contained or handled properly, there is again, a risk of hazard. If you abuse the privilege, and you or another human being (or someone else's pet) gets injured or killed by your animal, then your privilege should be revoked.

This is why this is touchy topic, but this is my opinion. Its that simple. Its doesn't take much to get a driver's license, or a gun permit, or a hunter's license, or boater's license, etc.....but you mess up, you lose it and pay the consequences and become another statistic. It should be no different for croc, hots or giant snakes.

[EL Ziggy]

Well said StR.

[millertime89]

What SotR said. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[red ink]

A licensing system for ALL reptiles isn't that bad... we still survive.

On an interesting point... there's an addendum added to our license requirements. We are legally bound to keep any reptile we purchase on license for 6 months.

Why would this be of any interest?

I sold one of my geckos to a kid last Saturday... guess which gecko appeared in an advert fro a $100 more than they paid on Sunday night?

The kid has now been caught out on it and no one would deal with him from now on for "flipping" once it got out on one of the forums that he did that. He has since taken the ad down but if a sale did go through from he ad then he would have been liable to have his license stripped and his animals confiscated by the governing body for a breach of his license conditions.

The six month moratorium also stops impulse buying from pet shops... as well as the fact that a pets hop will not sell you a reptile if you are not licensed (pet shops themselves are licensed therefore the care fall under regulatory restrictions - which we can inform the govt. Say... if the BDs don't have a basking light etc etc and they will get a visit from the governing body to check that they are providing the regulatory care, usually results in a fine if found to be in breach). Neither can you legally as a breeder sell to an unlicensed person as all transactions are recorded in a record book and we send a census back to the regulatory body each year off all our trades and transactions plus the exact numbers of animals and species we currently have.

As far as the info of numbers of keepers Vs what the info can be used for by the govt or animal rights activist?

Imagine the lobbying power the shear numbers of reptile keepers can have with the govt if they had cold hard facts of the numbers (not to mention the revenue they could make from licensing fees).

[SSSSnakes]

July 4th will be here Fri. What ever happened to? "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says has been given to all human beings by their Creator, and for which governments are created to protect.

My keeping reptiles is my pursuit of happiness.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

July 4th will be here Fri. What ever happened to? "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says has been given to all human beings by their Creator, and for which governments are created to protect.

My keeping reptiles is my pursuit of happiness.

It is when people abuse those so-called "unalienable rights" you speak of that we run into an issue. Its fine that you are free to speak your mind, and practice your own religious belief system (or choose not to have one at all!), your right to protect yourself and your family from oppression or home invasion, or make sure you a half-way decent education before you are an adult.

But when that wonderful document was written centuries ago, they really were not thinking of teenage sociopaths going on shooting sprees in schools or people keeping giant snakes, were they?
---
I really do feel people take the Declaration of Independence out of context to mean more than it did and tote it around to say they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want as long as it does not infringe on anyone else. The bottom line is that this hobby HAS infringed upon on others.

[FWK]

The issue here seems to run quite a bit deeper than simply the dangers of keeping, either to the keeper or anyone else. Some of y'all seem to be a bit confused as to what freedom really is and what your rights are. The more of your writing I read StudentoReptile (not just in this thread) the more convinced I become that you are simply resigned to your fate, that you believe our government really has the right to take your so called privileges at will. It is as if you are a child and the government your parents. You have no real rights, only the privilege to do as your parents say because they offer you what you call your rights to food, water, shelter etc. Where I come from the government works for me. I get up every day and go to work, I pay the taxes that keeps the government functioning and I vote for people to represent me and my interests in the various levels of government from city officials all the way up. The system is far from perfect but it is hands down the best in the world and I am damn proud to be a part of it. Some of the rights you mentioned are protected in our constitution including free speech and the right to vote. I do not believe I have an innate right to food, if I was to decide I didn't want to work and I had no money to buy food the government should not be required to feed me. Like the old saying, better to starve a free man than be a fat slave, eh? The right to own firearms is also a constitutionally protected, not a luxury as you claim. Our rights as citizens of a free country go far beyond the groundwork laid out in the constitution, just because the constitution doesn't outline the right to keep a reptile as a pet you think the government has the right to take my reptiles? Where I come from freedom means you have to right to just about whatever you please so long as you do not infringe on the rights of the next guy. In other words everybody, and I mean every human being regardless of race, creed, religion etc., is equal and has the right to pursue whatever in life makes them happy. Unless, of course, they prove themselves unequal (violent criminals, sexual predators, etc.) in which case they can lose just about all their rights including freedom. So, to get back to more the topic at hand, does keeping pet reptiles in any way infringe on the rights of my neighbor? I think we can rule out any interruption to ones daily life caused by excessive noise or other issues, the only question seems to be safety. Do these animals pose a legitimate threat to my neighbors life, limb or family? Fortunately we already have decades of statics to look back on and the numbers are clear and undeniable (despite what The Humane Society would so vehemently argue). No, these animals do not pose a legitimate threat to my neighbor in any way. Alright, maybe the keepers themselves need to be protected. Do these animals pose such an obscene danger to the hobbyist themselves that we should consider protecting the herpetoculturists from themselves? Again the answer is clearly no. Reptiles, either due to shear mass or by venom, pose virtually no threat to anyone outside the home they are kept in and very little threat to the people who keep them properly. I see no reason to reason to ban any reptile from the pet industry in the US due to safety concerns. The only valid argument would then be the threat of invasive species and only a hand full of species pose a real threat in this regard, most already are banned. So again (and probably for the last time here), I maintain that I believe people should be free to keep just about anything as long as proper care and security is provided.

I should note that I do not currently keep hots or giants and have no plans to ever keep exotic hots or true giants. A few of the smaller hots native to my part of the country are hopefully in my future though. I still believe others should be free to do what makes them happy even if it is something I personally have no interest in, if Cobras or Burms make you happy then go for it. As has already been mentioned the problem with passing any type of legislation regulating reptiles due to safety concerns is the fact that groups that hate pets in general will use it as ammunition in their next campaign. Say we agree to a licensing system, the next step is obvious. These animals are so dangerous we require people who keep them be licensed, why not just ban them altogether? One step at at time they will pave the way to ban all the pets they can, species by species if they have to. As we have already established the majority of the general public is afraid of reptiles due to ignorance and most will not hesitate to vote to ban what they do not understand out to fear.

[StudentoReptile]

FWK, I think you misread me a little.

First of all, I never said there should be a ban on any species. I DID say in an earlier post that I personally felt that crocodilians should be made so readily available to the general public, and even gave a very exemptions.
---
Regarding everything else you said...

We can debate rights vs privileges until the cows come home. I know millions of die-hard of Americans who will cling desperately to their Declaration of Independence and their Bill of Rights, and fervently believe those two documents will shield them from anything that oppresses their ability to do or say in this country. I am terribly sorry to burst that naive fantastical little bubble, but it is quite simply not that black and white, nor cut and dry.

Yes, you have freedom of speech. You can walk to any street corner and say whatever your pretty little heart or dirty little mind desires if you choose. However, depending on the circumstances, you may have to pay consequences for what you said. Nobody oppressed you from saying what you said. But you have to answer for what comes out of your mouth (or what gets typed under your username!).
---
Now...as a reptile hobbyist, I'm with you. I know how little of a risk reptiles pose to the general public....just as I know how little of a risk law-abiding gun-owners pose. My fundamental stance is punish the offenders and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. I totally agree outright bans are no-good and completely ineffective.

But some folks are living in a dream world. If you think just because you pay your taxes, and never got a speeding ticket, and your dogs are always on a leash, your lawn is always mowed, and you got the stars and stripes waving in your front yard, Uncle Sam has no right to take away something that ain't a problem to anyone....guess what? I agree with you on a philosophical level. But I'm also a realist. Just because I agree with you on principles does not mean that THEY do! And it isn't going to stop them from taking away whatever they want, because guess what? If it would, why did we get 4 species of constrictors put on the Lacey Act, hmmm? Where did the Declaration of Independence and Bill o' Rights come into play when 9 species of boas and pythons were on the block with USFWS? Apparently your "RIGHTS" can be taken away, Mr. Tax-payer.

And look around, they're not stopping. They're still trying to add 5 more species, and seems like every time we turn around, another state level legislature is popping up. Maybe not every bill goes through, but it does not stop them from trying.
---
Look, I want to keep my herps just like anyone else. But ignoring the facts is folly. I said it in another thread, and I'll say again: legislature threatening our ability to keep herps is going to continue coming down the pike. You have 4 choices on how you're going to deal with it:

• 1) Denial - ignore it or pretend it does not affect you =
• 2) Resignation - rollover and just accept whatever comes, only keeping what is legal = passively unhelpful
• 3) Violation - deliberately disobeying any such law or ordnance that affects you because you feel it is unjust. This really does not help you or the rest of the hobby, because WHEN you inevitably get caught, it makes everyone look bad.
• 4) React - Stay updated with impending and current laws, actively but professionally oppose the unreasonable ones, and lobby for reasonable alternatives for both sides (compromise?) - [BTW, this is my option]

Sorry, the free America that existed 40+ yrs ago does not exist anymore. I wish it did, but it does not. You can go hunker down in your snake room basement, and clutch your shotgun, thinking "They can take my pythons over my dead body!"....or you can crawl out of your hole, stop whining whether you really are entitled own a reptile as you do an education, and actually get an involved with a herp club somewhere. If there's not one around, start one. That's what I did. They're actually kinda fun. You go and meet and interact with REAL reptile people in person (at least once monthly) and educate the general public, and also set goals like revising city or state-level ordinances to beat back stuff like this. It sure beats sharing photos on social media and arguing on forums.

[54bogger]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

FWK, I think you misread me a little.

First of all, I never said there should be a ban on any species. I DID say in an earlier post that I personally felt that crocodilians should be made so readily available to the general public, and even gave a very exemptions.
---
Regarding everything else you said...

We can debate rights vs privileges until the cows come home. I know millions of die-hard of Americans who will cling desperately to their Declaration of Independence and their Bill of Rights, and fervently believe those two documents will shield them from anything that oppresses their ability to do or say in this country. I am terribly sorry to burst that naive fantastical little bubble, but it is quite simply not that black and white, nor cut and dry.

Yes, you have freedom of speech. You can walk to any street corner and say whatever your pretty little heart or dirty little mind desires if you choose. However, depending on the circumstances, you may have to pay consequences for what you said. Nobody oppressed you from saying what you said. But you have to answer for what comes out of your mouth (or what gets typed under your username!).
---
Now...as a reptile hobbyist, I'm with you. I know how little of a risk reptiles pose to the general public....just as I know how little of a risk law-abiding gun-owners pose. My fundamental stance is punish the offenders and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. I totally agree outright bans are no-good and completely ineffective.

But some folks are living in a dream world. If you think just because you pay your taxes, and never got a speeding ticket, and your dogs are always on a leash, your lawn is always mowed, and you got the stars and stripes waving in your front yard, Uncle Sam has no right to take away something that ain't a problem to anyone....guess what? I agree with you on a philosophical level. But I'm also a realist. Just because I agree with you on principles does not mean that THEY do! And it isn't going to stop them from taking away whatever they want, because guess what? If it would, why did we get 4 species of constrictors put on the Lacey Act, hmmm? Where did the Declaration of Independence and Bill o' Rights come into play when 9 species of boas and pythons were on the block with USFWS? Apparently your "RIGHTS" can be taken away, Mr. Tax-payer.

And look around, they're not stopping. They're still trying to add 5 more species, and seems like every time we turn around, another state level legislature is popping up. Maybe not every bill goes through, but it does not stop them from trying.
---

Look, I want to keep my herps just like anyone else. But ignoring the facts is folly. I said it in another thread, and I'll say again: legislature threatening our ability to keep herps is going to continue coming down the pike. You have 4 choices on how you're going to deal with it:

• 1) Denial - ignore it or pretend it does not affect you =
• 2) Resignation - rollover and just accept whatever comes, only keeping what is legal = passively unhelpful
• 3) Violation - deliberately disobeying any such law or ordnance that affects you because you feel it is unjust. This really does not help you or the rest of the hobby, because WHEN you inevitably get caught, it makes everyone look bad.
• 4) React - Stay updated with impending and current laws, actively but professionally oppose the unreasonable ones, and lobby for reasonable alternatives for both sides (compromise?) - [BTW, this is my option]

Sorry, the free America that existed 40+ yrs ago does not exist anymore. I wish it did, but it does not. You can go hunker down in your snake room basement, and clutch your shotgun, thinking "They can take my pythons over my dead body!"....or you can crawl out of your hole, stop whining whether you really are entitled own a reptile as you do an education, and actually get an involved with a herp club somewhere. If there's not one around, start one. That's what I did. They're actually kinda fun. You go and meet and interact with REAL reptile people in person (at least once monthly) and educate the general public, and also set goals like revising city or state-level ordinances to beat back stuff like this. It sure beats sharing photos on social media and arguing on forums.

I kinda like the shotgun option!lol

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by 54bogger

I kinda like the shotgun option!lol

Well, it has a certain appeal, I agree...

But here's a few downsides to that approach:

• whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?
• let's face it, you'll eventually be caught (remember option #3 of last post)
• if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem

----
I'll give you two examples of people I know...

Guy #1 has a mouth, personality and mindset like many here; does not believe the govt has any right to tell him what he can or cannot keep or catch. He's been busted a few times for possessing illegal herps. Now he's on our game warden's radar. He's a little wiser nowadays, but unfortunately, his past experience has hurt his chances for being able to work with the system with obtaining the licenses/permits to possess what he wants to keep.

Guy #2: fundamentally believes the same way, doesn't agree with a lot of our laws, but has been fortunate enough for many yrs to work with local govt and game service, so he is able to obtain said permits and possess species many are not able to, as well as have connections some do not have. He may not agree with the system...but he knows how to work with it.

Just more food for thought...

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Well, it has a certain appeal, I agree...

But here's a few downsides to that approach:

• whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?
• let's face it, you'll eventually be caught (remember option #3 of last post)
• if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem

----
I'll give you two examples of people I know...

Guy #1 has a mouth, personality and mindset like many here; does not believe the govt has any right to tell him what he can or cannot keep or catch. He's been busted a few times for possessing illegal herps. Now he's on our game warden's radar. He's a little wiser nowadays, but unfortunately, his past experience has hurt his chances for being able to work with the system with obtaining the licenses/permits to possess what he wants to keep.

Guy #2: fundamentally believes the same way, doesn't agree with a lot of our laws, but has been fortunate enough for many yrs to work with local govt and game service, so he is able to obtain said permits and possess species many are not able to, as well as have connections some do not have. He may not agree with the system...but he knows how to work with it.

Just more food for thought...

I fall under the category of guy#2. But I have to disagree with;

• whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?

I keep my snake because I like them and have no need to show others. I show other only for educational purposes and to keep my licenses. I would be just as happy to keep all my snakes out of the public's eye and to enjoy them for just me.

[aaron_cg]

I'm all for having to pass an educational type class to license for the big constrictors, and hots. The issue runs into who regulates it. Obviously FWS can't.

As far as what can and can't, as long as you can provide proper care, then there really shouldn't be a restriction. Common sense.

And as another user said, and I have been saying for years, ignorance breeds fear.

Just my opinion.