Interesting new whole prey item...

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I have it here:
"A humane version of the same experiment demonstrates that on a sunny morning an 11g juvenile increased body temperature by 1.7C in a minute, whilst a 400g adult heated at only 0.2C per minute. Furthermore juvenile lizards heat up as if they were inert objects but adults are able to maintain steady body temperatures of around 38C for much longer periods. This means that when juveniles reach their maximum preferred body temperature they must retreat to a cooler spot within two minutes, whilst adults can remain active in full sun for a further half an hour. This greatly increases the animal's foraging options in hot weather, but because it takes the lizards much longer to heat up they are unable to make much use of short sunny spells during cloudy weather. As a result juveniles can be active on any day when there are breaks in the cloud, but adults must remain inactive unless more substantial sunny periods are available."

It sounds like Formica misqouted then when he said that they required 40-50 minutes in the wild, and we only recommend 15 min basking in captivity. I'm still interested in the 'how' these adults maintain 38c since the babies are physiologically the same. It seems more like the adults are increasing just like neonates, but since they have larger body mass, it simply takes longer and they don't actually DO any regulative process to keep cool....

Edit: Sorry, I just saw that piracucu basically said what I just did earlier.

[B_Aller]

So you site Bob's paper! Ha Perfect. This paper (written by a good friend of mine!) draws the conclusion that the majority of deaths in captive reptiles is from dehydration and gout, followed closely by reproductive failures and shows that parasitical infections are low on the list of harms to captive varanids, not to mention that the majority of those animals that died from infection were wild caught and died withing a short time of being in captivity. A reasonable conclusion from Bobs work is that inferior husbandry lead to some wild caught animals being unable to fight off wild pararsite loads but has only one instance of POSSIBLE foreign parasite infestation with questionable data. You can read the whole article on Bobs site or in Biawak, SUPER easy to find this report.

The real question Formica is why do you feel it's acceptable for someone with your obvious lack of understanding and lack of experience to offer up advice on captive husbandry protocols? How is this helping progress the hobby or teach people to care for these animals better? You are jumping to conclusions, searching for evidence to back up your pre-concieved ideas instead of actually reading the work or doing the work, how is this in any way helpful.

[formica]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

one instance of POSSIBLE foreign parasite infestation with questionable data.

so what exactly am I saying that is wrong, if you say yourself, that it is: ''POSSIBLE''

I am not the only person on this planet saying dont feed wild caught foods to reptiles, you are questioning a vast number of people in your arrogant assumptions about what I do and do not know.

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

It sounds like Formica misqouted then when he said that they required 40-50 minutes in the wild, and we only recommend 15 min basking in captivity. I'm still interested in the 'how' these adults maintain 38c since the babies are physiologically the same. It seems more like the adults are increasing just like neonates, but since they have larger body mass, it simply takes longer and they don't actually DO any regulative process to keep cool....

Edit: Sorry, I just saw that piracucu basically said what I just did earlier.

30-40minutes comes from the graph below that paragraph, infact he calculates that it took the larger adults one minute to raise their body tempreture by 0.2C, from 25C to 38C, thats 65minutes - but as I said there is no information on how those tempretures where taken, or the basking tempreture

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

for the sake of the donation i'll humor you:

A retrospective study of mortality in varanid lizar... [Zoo Biol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

out of 85, infection related deaths accounted for:

15.3% from bacteria
12.7% from protozoa
9.4% from nemtode (worms)
5.3% fungal

it is possible that those infections took hold prior to capture, but given the prevalence of infectious organisms in this world, there is no reason to assume that is the case, and the study covered both captive bred and wild caught specimens - i dont have access to the full paper, but perhaps you do and you could enlighten us on the known number of captive bred animals which died as a result of infections caught in captivity not in their native habitat.... and then send the donation to ZSL London Zoo


this is the last time I'm going to respond to your posts if you continue talking down in this manner, you are not adding anything positive to the discussion by behaving like this.

LOL. Considering that it has been concluded by most people familiar with proper varanid husbandry that the Bronx Zoo does not house its varanids in anything close to proper conditions (hence the majority of deaths being from dehydration and gout/reproductive failures). Their varanids are not properly supported, leaving them much more vulnerable to infection. Find something showing healthy varanids dying from parasitic causes.

Originally Posted by formica

yes I understand the relationship between size and body tempreture

diseases do not usually cross from for eg, primates to reptiles, even between dogs and primates, thats not really how it works, for some organisms it does for eg protozoa or worms, or salmonela in chickens, but bacterial/viral infections are generally specialized to take advantage of a very specific set of environmental conditions with particular species, and parasites like worms use prey animals as a transfer method, they dont infect them in the same way that they infect the final host

Now, what I was saying, is that there could well be infectious organisms living in reptiles in the country that the monitor finds itself, which may find the monitors body just the right enviroment to live and thrive, and given the right conditions it can be fatal

one most obvious example is Ebola, it is not a human disease, it is a monkey disease, but humans and monkeys are close enough inside to provide Ebola with an enviroment in which it can thrive, and because humans have not evolved with it, it has no protection whatsoever, well i'm sure you know the results of Ebola infection in humans!

There are always examples of species which are resistant to some infectious organisms, but on the other side of the coin, there are also organisms which can eat a species alive - one of the concerns surrounding exploration of the Amazon for eg, is that there is very likley to be an array of undiscovered organism which will find humans to be a good host, and the same can be said of any species in a non native habitat

Again, LOL. Even more evidence you don't seem to have an understanding of what you read. Ebola? A monkey disease? Please. It is not a primate disease, as evidenced by how well it massacres them. It's too fatal, too fast, and isn't infectious enough to gain a foothold in a population of primates. It is unknown what its natural host is, but whatever animal Ebola normally resides in is going to be one not affected by it, or at least not affected as badly. As of now, the best guess is that it resides in bats, as they have been found to have immune systems resistant to Ebola Virus, and in laboratory tests, Ebola has been shown to infect some species without making them sick. Even so, them being its natural host is as of yet unproven because no wild bats have been found carrying Ebola.

You seem to think that it is the goal of the virus to kill its host. The reality is far from your interpretation. A successful parasite is one that can infect and spread through a species without killing its hosts.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

LOL. Considering that it has been concluded by most people familiar with proper varanid husbandry that the Bronx Zoo does not house its varanids in anything close to proper conditions (hence the majority of deaths being from dehydration and gout/reproductive failures). Their varanids are not properly supported, leaving them much more vulnerable to infection. Find something showing healthy varanids dying from parasitic causes.
Again, LOL. Even more evidence you don't seem to have an understanding of what you read. Ebola? A monkey disease? Please. It is not a primate disease, as evidenced by how well it massacres them. It's too fatal, too fast, and isn't infectious enough to gain a foothold in a population of primates. It is unknown what its natural host is, but whatever animal Ebola normally resides in is going to be one not affected by it, or at least not affected as badly. As of now, the best guess is that it resides in bats, as they have been found to have immune systems resistant to Ebola Virus, and in laboratory tests, Ebola has been shown to infect some species without making them sick. Even so, them being its natural host is as of yet unproven because no wild bats have been found carrying Ebola.

You seem to think that it is the goal of the virus to kill its host. The reality is far from your interpretation. A successful parasite is one that can infect and spread through a species without killing its hosts.

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it? in which case, you really should get onto the world health organisation and let them know about this spectacular creature which defies the biological rules which put every other species 6ft under.

there are many theories on the source of Ebola, none of which have been proven yet, but thats missing my point entirly, it is not a human disease, humans have not evolved with it, and they have no protection against it - that, is my point.

I understand that a parasite does not intend to kill its host, thats not my point either, my point is that when an animal and a parasite have not evolved together, the result, can be death (for either or both), whereas those that evolved together, are more easily able to exist without one or the other dying.

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by formica

so what exactly am I saying that is wrong, if you say yourself, that it is: ''POSSIBLE''

I am not the only person on this planet saying dont feed wild caught foods to reptiles, you are questioning a vast number of people in your arrogant assumptions about what I do and do not know.

What's wrong is that the proper support was not there, the animals were subjected to improper husbandry and quarantine protocols and the cause of death was questionable. All of that is stated in the paper, and by the way, that paper is already linked on this site, pretty easy to find.

My point and the reason I'm glad you cited Bobs excellent work is that the conclusion we are drawing from the evidence we have available to us that the most important parameters in reptile keeping are the tenets of modern husbandry,i.e large temp gradient, deep natural substrate,proper diet, range of humidity and security and reproductive support. These are more important than worrying over parasites and UV and brumation and other trivial nonsense. There are thousands of monitors dead from improper husbandry, POSSIBLY a few that died from "alien" parasite loads, maybe, no actual evidence, so why are you, Formica with no experience and no knowledge even of the paper you site offering up advice? It's dangerous and destructive. You think I'm arrogant, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, my reason for challenging you is that you are offering bad advice. That conclusion is based on my hands on experience.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I have it here:
"A humane version of the same experiment demonstrates that on a sunny morning an 11g juvenile increased body temperature by 1.7C in a minute, whilst a 400g adult heated at only 0.2C per minute. Furthermore juvenile lizards heat up as if they were inert objects but adults are able to maintain steady body temperatures of around 38C for much longer periods. This means that when juveniles reach their maximum preferred body temperature they must retreat to a cooler spot within two minutes, whilst adults can remain active in full sun for a further half an hour. This greatly increases the animal's foraging options in hot weather, but because it takes the lizards much longer to heat up they are unable to make much use of short sunny spells during cloudy weather. As a result juveniles can be active on any day when there are breaks in the cloud, but adults must remain inactive unless more substantial sunny periods are available."

Hi, many thanks for posting the info! It`s interesting to note that an animal weighing just 400gm is described as a "large" adult.
I must say though that there`s a great difference between what Formica claimed and what Daniel actually said in terms of the time they can maintain their core temp of 38c (60 mins Formica, 30 for Daniel). I take it Daniel got it wrong?

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it? in which case, you really should get onto the world health organisation and let them know about this spectacular creature which defies the biological rules which put every other species 6ft under.

there are many theories on the source of Ebola, none of which have been proven yet, but thats missing my point entirly, it is not a human disease, humans have not evolved with it, and they have no protection against it - that, is my point.

I understand that a parasite does not intend to kill its host, thats not my point either, my point is that when an animal and a parasite have not evolved together, the result, can be death (for either or both), whereas those that evolved together, are more easily able to exist without one or the other dying.

No, I'm not saying that they are invincible. But to base your claims off of a misinterpretation of a study is even more in the wrong. The conclusion was that most varanid deaths are caused directly by improper husbandry. I would go a step further and say that a number of the remaining deaths are also indirectly caused by improper husbandry, as the monitor's immune system cannot function at its full capacity when it is not supported. I'm not saying a properly supported varanid can take anything, but they are far from fragile animals. There is a reason they are still around. Show me an example of a properly cared for captive monitor dying from some parasite or disease because it was fed wild prey.
It's also worth pointing out, every organism on the planet is host to something or other. Humans contain more bacteria, viruses, and fungi than we do human cells. Entire ecosystems exist inside of us. The same being true for every animal, do you think we should only feed our monitors prey from the exact spot in Africa that the monitor originates from? What if a species of bacteria that lives in the guts of Dubia Roaches is lethal when ingested by a Savannah Monitor?
The bottom line is that bacteria, viruses, fungi, and all manner of parasites are everywhere. The simple fact that your monitor is not on the plains of Africa means that it is being exposed to numerous organisms that it has never encountered or evolved with. Properly support your monitor, and the likelihood that it will get sick is close to none.

[nepoez]

I think everyone agrees that there is a CHANCE that foreign parasites MAY kill your varanid. That's all there is to it. No one is saying there's no chance and no one is saying the lizard will for sure die if contracted with foreign parasites. I don't see the point in this arguing.

Also my sav regulates its temp under high heat by using an umbrella hehehe

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, many thanks for posting the info! It`s interesting to note that an animal weighing just 400gm is described as a "large" adult.
I must say though that there`s a great difference between what Formica claimed and what Daniel actually said in terms of the time they can maintain their core temp of 38c (60 mins Formica, 30 for Daniel). I take it Daniel got it wrong?

the book says temperature is maintained for upto an hour. how go and read the book yourself. tedious as usual.

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

No, I'm not saying that they are invincible. But to base your claims off of a misinterpretation of a study is even more in the wrong. The conclusion was that most varanid deaths are caused directly by improper husbandry. I would go a step further and say that a number of the remaining deaths are also indirectly caused by improper husbandry, as the monitor's immune system cannot function at its full capacity when it is not supported. I'm not saying a properly supported varanid can take anything, but they are far from fragile animals. There is a reason they are still around. Show me an example of a properly cared for captive monitor dying from some parasite or disease because it was fed wild prey.
It's also worth pointing out, every organism on the planet is host to something or other. Humans contain more bacteria, viruses, and fungi than we do human cells. Entire ecosystems exist inside of us. The same being true for every animal, do you think we should only feed our monitors prey from the exact spot in Africa that the monitor originates from? What if a species of bacteria that lives in the guts of Dubia Roaches is lethal when ingested by a Savannah Monitor?
The bottom line is that bacteria, viruses, fungi, and all manner of parasites are everywhere. The simple fact that your monitor is not on the plains of Africa means that it is being exposed to numerous organisms that it has never encountered or evolved with. Properly support your monitor, and the likelihood that it will get sick is close to none.

if it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice, this topic could infact be argued to death, but it will always come down to opinion, not fact. I personally do not consider the risk to be worth it, and there are many others who agree.

Originally Posted by B_Aller

What's wrong is that the proper support was not there, the animals were subjected to improper husbandry and quarantine protocols and the cause of death was questionable. All of that is stated in the paper, and by the way, that paper is already linked on this site, pretty easy to find.

My point and the reason I'm glad you cited Bobs excellent work is that the conclusion we are drawing from the evidence we have available to us that the most important parameters in reptile keeping are the tenets of modern husbandry,i.e large temp gradient, deep natural substrate,proper diet, range of humidity and security and reproductive support. These are more important than worrying over parasites and UV and brumation and other trivial nonsense. There are thousands of monitors dead from improper husbandry, POSSIBLY a few that died from "alien" parasite loads, maybe, no actual evidence, so why are you, Formica with no experience and no knowledge even of the paper you site offering up advice? It's dangerous and destructive. You think I'm arrogant, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, my reason for challenging you is that you are offering bad advice. That conclusion is based on my hands on experience.

I'm not on this forum to be told that topics are irrelevant or trivial nonsense, if you cant handle an intelligent discussion without getting your knickers in a twist, then forums really arnt for you.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

the book says temperature is maintained for upto an hour. how go and read the book yourself. tedious as usual.



if it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice, this topic could infact be argued to death, but it will always come down to opinion, not fact. I personally do not consider the risk to be worth it, and there are many others who agree.



I'm not on this forum to be told that topics are irrelevant or trivial nonsense, if you cant handle an intelligent discussion without getting your knickers in a twist, then forums really arnt for you.

I am sitting here with my copy, and it makes no mention of maintaining temperature for an hour. It says half an hour.

If it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice? Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What is the ambiguous "It", and why would it be a widely held practice if it was an issue? I'm assuming your double negative was a mistake, but I still don't know what you're trying to say.

If you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims, I would say it's you who ought not to be on the forums. You have yet to provide any evidence not skewed by some other factor, such as improper husbandry. Also, I would not classify this as an intelligent discussion. Meaningless blather about insignificant details might be a bit more accurate. If you could more clearly state what you are trying to say and back it up with conclusive evidence instead of vague references, I might consider calling it an intelligent conversation.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by formica

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it?.

No, but why not just stress the husbandry?

I know people who scraped dead chipmunks off the road and used it for monitor food. why not, you think a wild Argus or Perentie, Lace, Water, etc.. is going to walk away from a carcass?

is that sanitary?

Or maybe, just maybe, these scaly tanks are "set up" just right to take advantage of these free meals?

Time and again, forum after forum, I encounter people dosing lizards with pancur and for what??? because the have no effing clue why that lizard is sick, so it HAS to be parasites, and then it dies they profess parasites, the story spreads, and Miss Information wins the pageant again.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I am sitting here with my copy, and it makes no mention of maintaining temperature for an hour. It says half an hour.

If it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice? Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What is the ambiguous "It", and why would it be a widely held practice if it was an issue? I'm assuming your double negative was a mistake, but I still don't know what you're trying to say.

If you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims, I would say it's you who ought not to be on the forums. You have yet to provide any evidence not skewed by some other factor, such as improper husbandry. Also, I would not classify this as an intelligent discussion. Meaningless blather about insignificant details might be a bit more accurate. If you could more clearly state what you are trying to say and back it up with conclusive evidence instead of vague references, I might consider calling it an intelligent conversation.

[quote]

yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?

Originally Posted by infernalis

No, but why not just stress the husbandry?

I know people who scraped dead chipmunks off the road and used it for monitor food. why not, you think a wild Argus or Perentie, Lace, Water, etc.. is going to walk away from a carcass?

is that sanitary?

Or maybe, just maybe, these scaly tanks are "set up" just right to take advantage of these free meals?

Time and again, forum after forum, I encounter people dosing lizards with pancur and for what??? because the have no effing clue why that lizard is sick, so it HAS to be parasites, and then it dies they profess parasites, the story spreads, and Miss Information wins the pageant again.

it is certainly true that scavengers are better equiped to deal with unsanitary foods than more specialized species, and more so in the habitat they evolved in with the organisms they evolved with.

this topic is not about bad enviromental parameters, of course they can compromise the immune system, but for every strong immune system, there are numerous possible organisms which can take it down

[smy_749]

[QUOTE=formica;865999]

yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?



it is certainly true that scavengers are better equiped to deal with unsanitary foods than more specialized species, and more so in the habitat they evolved in with the organisms they evolved with.

this topic is not about bad enviromental parameters, of course they can compromise the immune system, but for every strong immune system, there are numerous possible organisms which can take it down

Why is that? Isn't the way coevolution works is that the 'organisms' are co-evolving to be better suited to infect their host (red queen race?). So maybe the organisms/parasites in the hosts original environment are more adapted at harming the host? And roadkill from another country is significantly less dangerous since the parasites or whatever haven't been a part of the evolutionary race?

Not saying they can't harm the host, just that it could go either way so your statement is a bit off..