ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, I`ve used exterior filters in my monitor`s pools for many years, I think by having soil in the water it will probably clog the filter quite quickly. Much easier to have nothing but water in the pond (heated to the low to mid 80`sF).

he was on about avoiding the filter alltogether and using soil to generate anearobic conditions to look after the water quality...

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I think you are trying to take this farther than it needs to or ought to go. You are talking about a period of fasting, why not simply provide deep dirt and a humid environment year round, and cut back on feeding for two or three months each year?

Hi, I would agree, and with the greatest respect to the OP overthinking often leads to problems, in this case it probably will (for the animal, not the keeper).
There IS a "formula" already in place for keeping Varanids healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, unfortunately not too many people know there is one, or if they do, for some reason want to make unnecessary changes (complicate things) because they think they can do it even better, the statistics prove otherwise.

[formica]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Pirarucu, re- Eggs, I did not know that females will lay unfertilized eggs, how deep do they like to burrow to lay? I have seen sexual maturation rates in the wild starting at 11months, is it similar in captivity?

Your suggestion of simply cutting back food is one i've thought about, but doesnt deal with the enviroment change and physiology change, and so doesnt really solve the issue, unless i change the enviromental parameters, in which case the only place where I can be sure the humidity and temp are correct will be inside the box - well lets see what happens! its still a hatchling, just as happy sleeping in moss under a log as in a burrow (which i dug for it lol)

I think I am going to offer both options, as suggested earlier in the thread, a regulated burrow-box and digging area, leave him/her to make the choice.


There are more reasons to this than I can adequately describe without actually having finished the design and got it working - it does sound more complicated, but i think it'll actually save a fair amount of effort - the egg laying factor still tbc

[varanus_mad]

50% snout to vent length of TAL for egg laying as a general guideline...

[franks]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

50% snout to vent length of TAL for egg laying as a general guideline...

And... correct me if I am wrong... but I remember reading reports of sexually mature Bosc Monitors at 10"-11".

Please do not take this personally formica, but if you did not know a female would lay unfertilized eggs, you may not be experienced/researched enough to start tinkering with a proven system of husbandry. Perhaps you can keep your monitor for a while, continue researching, and make changes as your experience and knowledge on this species grows? I think it is awesome that you think outside the box, the hobby needs more monitor keepers that do, but I am not sure if you are in a position to do so in the best interest of the animal you are responsible for.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

Ok what I ment by 'not a harsh climate' is that temprate regions, like the UK for eg. also go thru extreme tempreture changes, which causes animals to hibernate or become dormant. in the same way that dry/wet seasons cause similar effects along the equator.

Its not about protecting a monitor from what we percieve to be a harsh climate imo, the enviroment is no more harsh than the one I grew up in, reletivly speaking, its about keeping the monitor healthy and giving it a good quality of life - whether or not the quality of life for a monitor living in a humid lush savanna landscape 365 days a year is better than one which doesnt, is debatable, without hard facts about the changes which occour in their physiology and how important those changes are to its health.

Search thru google on studies relating to IGF-1 hormones in humans, and the way they change our bodies during times of fasting (which in our hunter-gather days would have occoured very frequently) - fraid there are far too many links on the subject for me to filter out the ones to send you, but that is the hormone that is important in relation to DNA repair and fasting (ignore the articals about fad diets, there are some key peer-reviewed scientific articals on the subject)

I personally feel we are "comforting" our pets to death. Most of our reptiles come from environments where there are very distinct differences in the weather and temperature during the different seasons.

A reptiles metabolism is directly affected by temperatures. We all know reptiles conserve energy during the unfavorable seasons. Yet when weather is favorable they're much more active.

I said all of that to say that I feel that keeping a reptile in prime conditions at all times not only increases the growth rate but may also shorten their lives. I honestly have nothing but rationale to back this up though.

[franks]

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by franks

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by franks

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

I believe it is both actually. Even in ideal conditions a snake may only find a meal once a month or so. We tend to feed our snakes on a weekly or biweekly schedule regardless of species. Couple that with temps that promote constant metabolic stimulus and I feel we are just shortening their lives.

Most of this is directed at boas as that is my main interest. I have talked to many breeders and there really aren't too many 10+ year old boas. It seems most are dying before the 10 mark. This may be because a lot of breeders are pushing their snakes to reproduce asap. I do also realize that a lot of breeders upgrade so that may skew the numbers.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.

This is exactly what I thought but wasn't 100% sure it applies to snakes nor did I have anything solid to back it up.

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

No i can see where your going with but the anaerboic conditions in the soil which take out the bad stuff also produce gas's of there own which can build up in the soil and then release all of a sudden in a sealed environment like a sav viv they would be bad news.

What if I open the cage daily?

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

he was on about avoiding the filter alltogether and using soil to generate anearobic conditions to look after the water quality...

oops, my last reply was jumped too fast. What about the soil(not the water's soil but the substrate) will that also generate anearobic conditions causing a problem?

[franks]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I believe it is both actually. Even in ideal conditions a snake may only find a meal once a month or so. We tend to feed our snakes on a weekly or biweekly schedule regardless of species. Couple that with temps that promote constant metabolic stimulus and I feel we are just shortening their lives.

Most of this is directed at boas as that is my main interest. I have talked to many breeders and there really aren't too many 10+ year old boas. It seems most are dying before the 10 mark. This may be because a lot of breeders are pushing their snakes to reproduce asap. I do also realize that a lot of breeders upgrade so that may skew the numbers.

Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by franks

And... correct me if I am wrong... but I remember reading reports of sexually mature Bosc Monitors at 10"-11".

Please do not take this personally formica, but if you did not know a female would lay unfertilized eggs, you may not be experienced/researched enough to start tinkering with a proven system of husbandry. Perhaps you can keep your monitor for a while, continue researching, and make changes as your experience and knowledge on this species grows? I think it is awesome that you think outside the box, the hobby needs more monitor keepers that do, but I am not sure if you are in a position to do so in the best interest of the animal you are responsible for.

Yup Thats true i havent seen it in captives yet however while monitors can reproduce at 50% of the TAL i feel its also partially to do with maturity as well...

a wild bosc which is where ive read similar will be much smaller at a much greater age than in a captive varanid.

To the chap asking about anaerobic conditions - i cant imagine it would occur in a viv theres to much activity in there for them to occur. To be honest i couldnt see it working in a water tank either... the monitor would disturb it to much... i reckon...

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

This is exactly what I thought but wasn't 100% sure it applies to snakes nor did I have anything solid to back it up.

Its purely speculation really its another area that needs work...