Emulating Wild Sav Growth - Page 2

varanus_mad · 03-26-13, 04:51 PM

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

murrindindi · 03-26-13, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepoez

- From the book "Truth about savannah monitors". whole length
- I am referring to how long the dry seasons are in say, Ghana, how much food they really get in the wild, etc.
- I am indeed suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 365d as compared to their less than "ideal" env in the wild is an unknown factor and am curious about anyone's thoughts, or if they have actual comparisons of the 2

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of captive Savannah monitors (or any other species) are NOT kept supported at all, let alone 365 days a year, so it would be extremely difficult to find enough long-lived specimens to make a comparison. Also, where are the detailed studies on longevity of this or other species in the wild?
We need to know why they (V. exanthematicus) greatly reduce activity during the dry season/s, I`m not sure that`s too clear (it seems they don`t brumate)?

smy_749 · 03-26-13, 05:34 PM

Science is too complicated, with far too many unexplained, undiscovered reasons for why animals do things. Don't over think it and do what works

nepoez · 03-27-13, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

nepoez · 03-27-13, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

Science is too complicated, with far too many unexplained, undiscovered reasons for why animals do things. Don't over think it and do what works

Again, this is more for discussion purposes and not a suggestion to change what the current standards are at

With the lack of knowledge that we have here it's best to keep them the way we know best(e.g. like Infernalis) But I am just curious about whether a sav kept like that would out live a wild sav(excluding obvious variables such as common premature deaths in the wild such as predators or other ifs and buts, discarding off-topic exceptions)

nepoez · 03-27-13, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murrindindi

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of captive Savannah monitors (or any other species) are NOT kept supported at all, let alone 365 days a year, so it would be extremely difficult to find enough long-lived specimens to make a comparison. Also, where are the detailed studies on longevity of this or other species in the wild?
We need to know why they (V. exanthematicus) greatly reduce activity during the dry season/s, I`m not sure that`s too clear (it seems they don`t brumate)?

Yah exactly! It would be interesting if we have that data on wild sav's average life span(again, we won't ever have it, but IF we did, it would be interesting), and all the other missing variables you speak of(and more) and compare that to the data on today's well kept savs once there has been enough time passed on this generation's well kept savs(so we can compare life span)

infernalis · 03-27-13, 06:25 AM

In the wild we have factors such as ticks, Nematodes, eagles, baboons, man, big cats, Massive drought cycles, etc.

Undoubtedly a well kept animal should have 2-5 times (or more) the lifespan of a wild specimen.

The sad part is, a LOT of people cannot grasp the simplest common sense reasoning.

I just got into a debate about air flow and ventilation. I'm a "F-tard" because didn't you know ALL animals require ventilation, or they will suffocate, Oh and ALL animals MUST drink water to survive.

With that sort of rampant refusal to accept reason, there will always be large numbers of Varanids languishing in ignorant hands.

nepoez · 03-27-13, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

In the wild we have factors such as ticks, Nematodes, eagles, baboons, man, big cats, Massive drought cycles, etc.

Undoubtedly a well kept animal should have 2-5 times (or more) the lifespan of a wild specimen.

The sad part is, a LOT of people cannot grasp the simplest common sense reasoning.

I just got into a debate about air flow and ventilation. I'm a "F-tard" because didn't you know ALL animals require ventilation, or they will suffocate, Oh and ALL animals MUST drink water to survive.

With that sort of rampant refusal to accept reason, there will always be large numbers of Varanids languishing in ignorant hands.

I'm telling you man, you need to start writing that book! I'll be the first to buy! There's like only 1 book out there on savs!

infernalis · 03-27-13, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepoez

I'm telling you man, you need to start writing that book! I'll be the first to buy! There's like only 1 book out there on savs!

I wouldn't want to jump into anything like that "half cocked" I still get proven wrong or corrected from time to time.

nepoez · 03-27-13, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I wouldn't want to jump into anything like that "half cocked" I still get proven wrong or corrected from time to time.

For sure, but after a generation or so would you consider?

infernalis · 03-27-13, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepoez

For sure, but after a generation or so would you consider?

Of course, But it would likely be a big regurge of everything on my site and the forums.

nepoez · 03-27-13, 07:15 AM

I know there's no way you'd be able to write a book that is 100% "correct". New things will be discovered as time passes, always. But you'd be able to enlighten many keepers out there(the ones that care) with what worked for you with proven results, saving many monitors out there. e.g. Before I read your site with a few pages, I read like 20 other websites about savs... before getting my monitor, and it died on me and I had no clue why! It was only after searching for how my sav died did I find your site that I realized I had been reading the wrong stuff.

The thing is there aren't many books out there on savs and the one I picked is the one I used as a guide and it was all wrong. I think all the pet shops in my city has just 1 sav book, and I searched amazon there's 2 books on savs but I bought the one in the pet shop. Pretty much all the new buyers would be reading that book because like me, they think a book is reliable, if it's in a book it must be true! More so than websites. If you can put your book out there in the shops then maybe about 50% of the savs would live healthily. I know that it's a keeper's responsibility to do researches before buying, but with 90% of the info out there being bad, chances are guys like me will stumble on those first, before finding the info on this forum. But with so little books out there, just 1 extra good book added to the pet shops(yours) would have a really big impact on the death rate. At least in my opinion...

Oh, and just to show what a difference you made with just that 1 website. My last sav he layed around all day, and I seriously though that savs are boring lazy monitors. This time around I know my current temp setup is not perfect yet, but my savs are like hound dogs and I sit there for hours watching them scour my viv! The difference is night and day!

So again, I know I'm a long winded person and probably annoying to most lol. But..You may think your book would be half cocked now, but you could acknowledge that there will always be new discoveries, just like science(one day soy is good, the next day it's bad for you), but the info you present is what has worked for you and many others and the result is the proof(Once you successfully breed them). I mean if you and many others do A,B,C and the result = Healthy Breeding Savs, then the book has achieved its purpose(1 full cycle for savs). You could always point the reader to this forum or your website for more updated info?

infernalis · 03-27-13, 07:47 AM

You are not annoying at all. I have seen the same thing, Chomper was like a whole different species compared to Littlefoot and Cera.

varanus_mad · 03-27-13, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepoez

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

Sorry mate i skim read it the first time round.

In my opinion keeping them like waynes is currently are best option as we go on i.e. more and more people keeping like that we can experiement with including a period of reduced humidity to see how it affects savs behaviours...

I suspect we wont be ale to recreate those conditions succesfully due to the sheer size of an african savannah...

It never truly becomes a desert, deeper undeground there will be humid spots where they can hang out while they wait for the wet season to return,

I suspect the main reason for the size disprepency i.e. wild savs smaller than there captive counterparts is food availability, limited periods of boom and bust i..e high growth during a boom (wet period) then low/slower growth while in a bust season.

Typically a savs rapid growth period occurs in the first 18 months, stick a dry season in the middle of that (low food availability) growth slows down

All theoretical of course but some of my thoughts on wild sav growth vs captive growth.

Fun stuff

nepoez · 03-27-13, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Sorry mate i skim read it the first time round.

In my opinion keeping them like waynes is currently are best option as we go on i.e. more and more people keeping like that we can experiement with including a period of reduced humidity to see how it affects savs behaviours...

I suspect we wont be ale to recreate those conditions succesfully due to the sheer size of an african savannah...

It never truly becomes a desert, deeper undeground there will be humid spots where they can hang out while they wait for the wet season to return,

I suspect the main reason for the size disprepency i.e. wild savs smaller than there captive counterparts is food availability, limited periods of boom and bust i..e high growth during a boom (wet period) then low/slower growth while in a bust season.

Typically a savs rapid growth period occurs in the first 18 months, stick a dry season in the middle of that (low food availability) growth slows down

All theoretical of course but some of my thoughts on wild sav growth vs captive growth.

Fun stuff

Makes sense!