bad advice in shops

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

The problem is most people research herps by asking the guy at the pet shop.
I agree , worst advice I have heard came from local pet shops.

Ditto. The pet store is regrettably the first stop when people start doing their homework. Its not like a breeder or online forums are in the local yellow pages.
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Among countless others, here are a few of the pearls of wisdom coming from pet store employees I've heard over the years:

1.) Chameleons don't need any special lighting, just heat. In fact, you can just put a heat pad on the side of the tank.

2.) Yeah, you can mix a python and a boa together, as long as they're close enough in size.

3.) Sure the baby turtles can live in that tiny kidney-shaped lagoon for now. Just make sure you get a tank and the proper lighting as soon as possible.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Ditto. The pet store is regrettably the first stop when people start doing their homework. Its not like a breeder or online forums are in the local yellow pages.
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Among countless others, here are a few of the pearls of wisdom coming from pet store employees I've heard over the years:

2.) Yeah, you can mix a python and a boa together, as long as they're close enough in size.
.

Whats wrong with that?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

Whats wrong with that?

That's just one example. I have a photo of a Burmese eating a red-tail, and another of Dumeril's boa eating a BP somewhere. I apparently have misplaced them...though they were on my photobucket account...

I have personally witnessed situations of cornsnakes eating each other, spotted pythons eating each other, a bull snake eating a Dumeril's boa, and even a western hognose eating a sibling.

Cannibalism is certainly not exclusive to the genus Lampropeltis, but for some reason, people don't want to listen...until they lose a snake. Even then, they don't learn, and will continue making the same mistake.

In my first example, red-tails and ball pythons are two entirely different snakes from different continents. They have different diets, require different humidity levels and temperatures as well as habitat. There is no legitimate reason for putting them together. Anyone who claims to have done so "successfully" is fooling themselves. Aside from the issues regarding risk of pathogen and simple stress to both animals, there always exists the possibility of one snake ending up in the belly of the other.

[StudentoReptile]

To add to that, I wish I had a dollar for every customer who came to me and complained about all the problems they experienced after they put their snakes together. It didn't matter if it was a red-tail with a BP, or a Burmese with a red-tail, or whatever. It was always something: one or the other stopped eating, they would occasionally fight, one tried to eat the other a couple times, etc, etc. I would always ask them why they put them together in the first place, and usually the answer revolves them not having a second cage (either due to space or lack of money, or just mere laziness).

My response was always that trying to mix those species is compromising the health of both, and if they cannot provide the space for a second enclosure to keep them separate, they need to consider giving up one or the other. Because keeping them together is asking for trouble.

[bladeblaster]

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

The risk of a RTB eating a Royal is tiny, OK its zero if they are seperate, but it is so tiny as to be neglegable. RTB's not Royals are notable reptile feeders, chances are the royal was eating or had just eaten and was mistaken for a rodent due to the scent. Any cohabiting has to be done with a high level of care, especially at feeding time.

The 2 animals pictured are clearly youngsters, the risk of youngsters eating each other is much higher, as they are much more likely to see anything as food. Co-habiting young snakes is a far riskier prospect than co-habiting adult snakes.

The requirements for a RTB and Royal are really not that different at all, you could happilt keep both with an 88 degree basking arean and 50 - 60% humidity.

Also you can only spread disease if a disease exists in the first place, which if quarantined properly, the risk of this should also be minimal.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

I understand that technically "cannibalism" is only when it involves members of the same species eating each other, so I admit my use of the term was inaccurate. Tonight I'll be happy to show you some photos of true cannibalism: i.e. red-tails eating red-tails and ball pythons eating ball pythons. The pics are on my home computer.

I also concur that the chances of it happening is rare, but my point is: why take the chance? Its like driving your car with an expired license plate. Sooner or later, you're gonna get caught, and get a ticket. How long are you push the envelope?

Some people choose to take the risk. I suppose I just value my animals a little more than that, is all.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.

I disagree. Are you saying that it is beneficial to house these two species together? That keepers should throw the "better safe than sorry" mentality out the window?

Again, I maintain that there is NO legitimate reason to house them together. You can't even breed them together. So again I ask: why take the risk?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

The risk of a RTB eating a Royal is tiny, OK its zero if they are seperate, but it is so tiny as to be neglegable. RTB's not Royals are notable reptile feeders, chances are the royal was eating or had just eaten and was mistaken for a rodent due to the scent. Any cohabiting has to be done with a high level of care, especially at feeding time.

The 2 animals pictured are clearly youngsters, the risk of youngsters eating each other is much higher, as they are much more likely to see anything as food. Co-habiting young snakes is a far riskier prospect than co-habiting adult snakes.

The requirements for a RTB and Royal are really not that different at all, you could happilt keep both with an 88 degree basking arean and 50 - 60% humidity.

Also you can only spread disease if a disease exists in the first place, which if quarantined properly, the risk of this should also be minimal.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.

The best reason I'll ever ask for is why take ANY risk in the first place?


That isn't a youngster boa, that's easily 4 - 5 feet and could be an adult male. We don't know.


The amount of people who generally place their animals in co-habitation are people I find who don't buy animals from the most reputable places and thus have disease and other random findings in their animals. Honestly, I see enough "help my snake is sick!" or "What is this wheezing?" questions on forums to know that there is disease and enough of it goes around.

On the same topic, if you happen to get an RI or whatever with one snake why do you want to double up on everything because you have two animals in an enclosure instead of one. That's double meds, double vet checks and in the end you'll end up having to seperate them as I highly doubt the stress of living with another solitary animal won't help them heal.

[hellosugaree]

Depends on who is running the store and working there, but yeah--some can be pretty terrible. I've hear stupid stuff regurgitated here and all over the internet as well. Bad advice can come from many places

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I understand that technically "cannibalism" is only when it involves members of the same species eating each other, so I admit my use of the term was inaccurate. Tonight I'll be happy to show you some photos of true cannibalism: i.e. red-tails eating red-tails and ball pythons eating ball pythons. The pics are on my home computer.

I also concur that the chances of it happening is rare, but my point is: why take the chance? Its like driving your car with an expired license plate. Sooner or later, you're gonna get caught, and get a ticket. How long are you push the envelope?

Some people choose to take the risk. I suppose I just value my animals a little more than that, is all.



I disagree. Are you saying that it is beneficial to house these two species together? That keepers should throw the "better safe than sorry" mentality out the window?

Again, I maintain that there is NO legitimate reason to house them together. You can't even breed them together. So again I ask: why take the risk?

I am not disagreeing that the risk isn't there, and no I see no benefit in housing a BP with a RTB at all. They are extremes though in terms of distribution. What about a python and colubrid form the same region, or a burm and a retic?

Personally it's not something I would choose to do, however with the proper care, and a large enough enclosure, I don;t see why it 'can't' be done. The reason most people have problems co-habiting anything is because they don;t realise the work involved in doing it 'properly'

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The best reason I'll ever ask for is why take ANY risk in the first place?


That isn't a youngster boa, that's easily 4 - 5 feet and could be an adult male. We don't know.


The amount of people who generally place their animals in co-habitation are people I find who don't buy animals from the most reputable places and thus have disease and other random findings in their animals. Honestly, I see enough "help my snake is sick!" or "What is this wheezing?" questions on forums to know that there is disease and enough of it goes around.

On the same topic, if you happen to get an RI or whatever with one snake why do you want to double up on everything because you have two animals in an enclosure instead of one. That's double meds, double vet checks and in the end you'll end up having to seperate them as I highly doubt the stress of living with another solitary animal won't help them heal.

Why keep a snake at all, it may get burn't, the stat might fail, anything could happen. Prob best not walk my dog either it might get a splinter.

that RTB is no where near 5ft, and is nowhere near being adult. male or not.

what makes you say snakes are solitary animals?

[StudentoReptile]

Thanks, Aaron.

I understand that there are a few cases where both zoos and private keepers have had success mixed-species habitats. However. most of these cases involve a biotope, and flora/fauna from a specific region. They take into account each species' behavior, diet, adult size, etc.

Like yours, my observations is that MOST people that are doing this are just tossing random species of herps in one enclosure with little thought put into it, similar to stocking a tropical fish aquarium (of course, there's issues with that as well, but that's another rabbit trail). My opinion is that for the most part, snakes are solitary, anti-social creatures. With the exception of breeding, they do not associate much with other snakes, conspecifics or otherwise. Another exception is the hibernation (or brumation) dens that attract large numbers of garter snakes, rattlesnakes, ratsnakes and copperheads in various areas of North America.

In captivity, trying to force a snake to co-habitate with another one will undoubtedly add stress to one or both animals. I have personally witnessed this countless times, both early on in my own collection and with others. One snake or both snakes almost invariably go off feed, sometimes grow more irritable, etc. I suppose if the enclosure is large and spacious enough, it can be done well, but few hobbyists are willing to do this. Even then, there are no advantages or benefits to the animals by housing them together. It is only for the benefit of the keeper, usually for conveniences' sake.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by bladeblaster

that RTB is no where near 5ft, and is nowhere near being adult. male or not.

Its all relative. There's nothing substantial in the photo for reference to accurately determine the size, and your phrasing "no where near 5 ft" is open to interpretation anyway (what is "near" 5 ft to you or me?).

Also, the genetics and lineage of the animal is questionable. Who knows, maybe it has Central American in it, and it is mature? I don't have the answer either, it isn't my snake. Just pointing out that it is naive to be so certain of the animal's size and maturity.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Thanks, Aaron.

I understand that there are a few cases where both zoos and private keepers have had success mixed-species habitats. However. most of these cases involve a biotope, and flora/fauna from a specific region. They take into account each species' behavior, diet, adult size, etc.

Like yours, my observations is that MOST people that are doing this are just tossing random species of herps in one enclosure with little thought put into it, similar to stocking a tropical fish aquarium (of course, there's issues with that as well, but that's another rabbit trail). My opinion is that for the most part, snakes are solitary, anti-social creatures. With the exception of breeding, they do not associate much with other snakes, conspecifics or otherwise. Another exception is the hibernation (or brumation) dens that attract large numbers of garter snakes, rattlesnakes, ratsnakes and copperheads in various areas of North America.

In captivity, trying to force a snake to co-habitate with another one will undoubtedly add stress to one or both animals. I have personally witnessed this countless times, both early on in my own collection and with others. One snake or both snakes almost invariably go off feed, sometimes grow more irritable, etc. I suppose if the enclosure is large and spacious enough, it can be done well, but few hobbyists are willing to do this. Even then, there are no advantages or benefits to the animals by housing them together. It is only for the benefit of the keeper, usually for conveniences' sake.

you are resorting to making huge sweeping generalisations to justify your point, some of which are not even remotely true, some are true in a small number of cases, and some are 'generally' true. However you are using them all as universal facts.

If you are going to enter into a debate its best to stick to facts, rather than conjecture, and broad sweeping generalisations.

[bladeblaster]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Its all relative. There's nothing substantial in the photo for reference to accurately determine the size, and your phrasing "no where near 5 ft" is open to interpretation anyway (what is "near" 5 ft to you or me?).

Also, the genetics and lineage of the animal is questionable. Who knows, maybe it has Central American in it, and it is mature? I don't have the answer either, it isn't my snake. Just pointing out that it is naive to be so certain of the animal's size and maturity.

if you really can't tell thats not an adult RTB, then you haven't seen many RTB's

and to suggest it has CA blood in it is a joke TBH

[StudentoReptile]

Bladeblaster, can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure?

My "opinions" are based on my own experiences and that of others. This makes them FACT. Just because I didn't get a grant from a university and spend thousands of dollars of tax-payers money, and compromised the lives of a bunch of snakes doing experiments doesn't make my point any less valid. So far, I have yet to come across any evidence that indicates this practice is beneficial to the animals involved. At best, they tolerate it and "survive." At worst...well, you saw the photo, and like I said, I'll post more later if you're not convinced.

So again: can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure? If not, then we'll agree to disagree.

I'm done arguing about the red-tail in the photo. It is a red-tailed boa eating a ball python, and my only purpose for posting it was to show that it can happen. Not to determine the age, size, and locality of the snake.