Wall (ball x woma) - Page 2

Will0W783 · 01-29-10, 09:10 AM

I am also pretty much a fence-sitter with the hybrids. I do like the wall, and I think it's a neat-looking snake. I happen to think carpondros are pretty even as adults- I saw pictures of a cobalt blue and black one; it was amazing. But I think that hybridizing is something one has to be very careful with. Breeders cannot always control where their animals end up, but microchipping hybrids, or at least being very selective in who you sell to, could help a bit. I really love the Superball (ball x blood) and am thinking of maybe trying to breed some myself someday once I have significant breeding experience just breeding pure lines.

marvelfreak · 01-30-10, 09:06 AM

I mean yes there's alot of cool snakes. But i feel there's a big differents between crossing a borneo short tail with a blood (cousin) compared crossin a ball with a woma. Not even close to the same species or sub species. On some snakes it's get harder to find pure breed. I want a Diamond carpet that looks like one, not a Jungle. I guess i am a fence sitter to a point. My question is where's the line?

Will0W783 · 01-30-10, 09:35 AM

Quote:

My question is where's the line?

That's a tough one...I want a diamond python that looks like a diamond too. I've seen some 75% diamond/jungles that look quite a bit like diamonds, but they still aren't the real thing. I think carpets are probably the most commonly crossed pythons- you see an awful lot of jungle/jags, and jungle/jag sibs, and IJ/jags, and IJ/jungles. I have an 8 foot male that is probably part coastal, but I seriously doubt pure, as he's all grey, white and black with none of the brown and tan seen on pure coastals. He's a wonderful pet but I will never breed him as I have no idea of his lineage, or his age for that matter.

citysnakes · 01-30-10, 10:51 AM

there is no line. breeding a snake from africa to a snake from australia is just as unnatural as keeping one of these snakes captive in an artificial environment in north america. hybridization can occur naturally in the wild just as snakes live naturally in the wild. artificial hybridization is just as artificial as keeping a snake captive in an artificial environment. hybrids, morphs, genetic defects or whatever you'll still have dirtbags trying to rip you off to make a buck. as long as an animal is honestly represented then its fine to me. now go to your snake room, breed your (insert species name here) to your (insert different species name here) and make millions.

gonesnakee · 01-30-10, 03:04 PM

On the Diamond & Carpets these are NOT Hybrids folks

They are all the same species & in most cases are naturally occurring intergrades.
Their natural ranges all touch apon ione another & or overlap & they breed naturally that way in the wild.
Intergrades occur naturally in the wild, Hybrids DO NOT & are a in captivity thing.
Huge difference between the 2 anyways.
That said yes with the whole Jaguar deal & other genes there are tons of crosses out there now & it can be difficult to obtain "pure" lines.
If you were in Canada I could sell you some pure Diamonds

Cheers Mark
edit - also on pure Diamonds some folks have the misconception that if there is any yellow in them they are not pure, which is very wrong if you look at the ones out of Austrailia as they can be a very distinct white/black or high yellow as well or anyhwere inbetween.
2nd edit - there are rumours of a few possible naturally occuring "hybrids: as well but cannot be proven. I can;t recall offhand what they are "supposed" to be?

Will0W783 · 01-30-10, 03:35 PM

Well, Mark, I guess I will just have to move to Canada- lol. I've seen what you produce, and you do make some gorgeous snakes. If you ever start exporting to the US let me know and I'll be sure to do business with you!

reptile king · 01-30-10, 11:19 PM

The best way it to stay pure, don't make hybrids, its not proper and not to be done, a true keeper, will stand behind this, and that what a lot of people i know do, i am a part of an association, not for snakes, but if i breed different types of the same family of birds together, and make pied and that, im out, and its a bi deal, different morphs of bp are great, but not hybrids, thats all i got to say

percey39 · 01-30-10, 11:32 PM

You are right mark, the diamond and carpet hybrid is misleading. They are actually intergrades as they do merge environments here. I love diamonds and i personally only really like the high yellow or whites. These are naturally occuring colours, it is pretty easy when you know what you are looking for to see hybrid traits in diamonds.
I dont believe in hybrids they look no where near as good IMO. We are just starting to see it happening here with breeders pumping out jags and calling them Reduced Pattern Morphs. I hate the idea of this happening here as we can only have native species and i believe this is going to destroy everything so many have worked so hard to achieve here.
I just hope we all can keep proven pure lines.

Regards Aaron

marvelfreak · 01-31-10, 09:36 AM

I just recently seen pics of diamonds with yellow and they rock.

marvelfreak · 01-31-10, 09:37 AM

I just don't like the jungle x diamonds because of the band. True diamonds don't have band going around. By the way Mark i seen pics of your Diamonds and they are beautiful snake

citysnakes · 02-01-10, 11:15 AM

In my understanding, taxonomically, an intergrade is a cross between subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species and both can occur in nature. In captivity, subspecies do not naturally merge to create an intergrade. they are intentionally placed together to produce a cross just as animals from different species are placed together to produce a cross. For this reason I think all captive crosses can be called hybrids. Lots of people who disagree with hybrids like to call their own crosses intergrades to preserve some sense of right and wrong. In my opinion captive intergrades and hybrids are the same thing regardless of the terminology used to justify one over the other.

gonesnakee · 02-01-10, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citysnakes.com

In my understanding, taxonomically, an intergrade is a cross between subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species and both can occur in nature. In captivity, subspecies do not naturally merge to create an intergrade. they are intentionally placed together to produce a cross just as animals from different species are placed together to produce a cross. For this reason I think all captive crosses can be called hybrids. Lots of people who disagree with hybrids like to call their own crosses intergrades to preserve some sense of right and wrong. In my opinion captive intergrades and hybrids are the same thing regardless of the terminology used to justify one over the other.

Ya OK LMAO HUGE HUGE difference between lets say a Diamond/Coastal cross Python who are of the same species & share some of the same natural ranges & a proven naturally occurring intergrade & a "Wall" lets say.
Which of course is an obvious Hybrid involving 2 very seperate distinct species, from 2 very seperate distinct ranges which will NEVER occur "naturally" due to the fact they are not even found on the same continent.
Can you see the difference Boys & Girls? I most definitely can.
The whole what occurs "naturally" arguement is a mute point anyways as absolutely NOTHING we do with these animals in captivity is "natural" by any means.
Reguardless what a person like myself does with Aussie Pythons in my upstairs bedroom is going to have ZERO affect on natural populations.
However what an Aussie keeper does with those same Pythons in Austrailia could be of some concern. If it is a naturally occurring intergrade such as a Diamond X CCP no big deal, but once you start to mix things that do not occur naturally that a potential issue may arise IF they were ever allowed back into the natural populations. Like releasing "Walls" for example.
As for most NA Colubrid Hybrids other than the Corn/Ratsnake crosses which can & will occur naturally where ranges overlap most of them will never happen in nature.
All the Junglecorns or any of the King crosses will not happen in nature.
The Kingsnakes will make the other species lunch.
The exceptions of course being some of the King/King crosses like say Graybands with a Variable King.
When most kings come across anything such as a Corn it is a potential meal NOT a potential mate LOL Heck when same species Kings meet in nature it can be either or both LOL
I for one see some significant differences anyways on whats "natural" & what is not, Cheers Mark

citysnakes · 02-01-10, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonesnakee

The whole what occurs "naturally" arguement is a mute point anyways as absolutely NOTHING we do with these animals in captivity is "natural" by any means.

Mark you totally missed my point as this is what i was saying in the first place.

one reason why people favor captive intergrades over captive hybrids is because they are seen as naturally occuring in overlapping areas of some single region. a hybrid, in captivity, especially from two different species from two different continents is seen as "unnatural" and frowned upon.

hybrids can occur in nature and obviously two different species from two different continents may never meet (its possible though...) but two different species meeting in overlapping areas from the same continent is definitely possible.

Mark life on earth is not limited to carpets and aussie pythons. hybrids occur in nature between many species of plants and animals. thats one point. the next point is because nothing we do in captivity is natural in anyway whatsoever, intergrades should not be favoured and hybrids frowned upon because one is seen as natural while the other one is not. in captivity they are both an artificial or man made product of a somewhat controlled experiment.

nobody has to agree with my opinion but maybe now you'll actually understand it instead of LYAO at it.

gonesnakee · 02-02-10, 12:16 AM

Oh I'll still LOL at you don;t worry about that

I agree with some of your points, as for the part on plants & animals I'm only here talking about snakes

Like I orginally said I'm a fence sitter on the subject agree with some things but not with others etc. lots of grey areas within the grey area so to speak

LOL Cheers Mark

percey39 · 02-02-10, 04:33 AM

In australia we do have natural intergrades which were caught in the wild and bred. These are not hybrids in any way what so ever. I find all true hybrids are filth IMHO they are not natural and will destroy the hobby as its will be hard to obtain TRUE blood lines. I know over there its nearly impossible to get pure diamonds and thats a big shame, they are great looking snakes and i believe the problem will only get worse with what some are doing over there. Its a huge market and i cant understand why. The only reason i can think of is that most are bought by people just starting out and wanting "pretty snakes, with heaps of colours"
I dont think intergrades are happening in australia, but i honestly find it hard to see a jungle breeding with a diamond in the wild. To me thats like saying a scrub will breed with a gtp or a boa and retic, it just isnt believable. I am glad it is illegal here to cross species, but am not a stupid person and i know it is happening. I just hope it doesnt continue.
Cheers