PICS - New black bloods!

[Beardonicus]

Are you sure those aren't Borneos? They look *exactly* like Borneos to me....but I could be wrong. *shrugs*

[Invictus]

Only BigDan can answer that. If they are Borneos, they are the most gentle borneos I've ever encountered. But I have seen quite a lot of orange-headed black bloods in my time too. I heard that black bloods have an extra ocular scale. I'll research the scalation and post my findings after I check these guys.

[Invictus]

Based on this extremely scientific article:

http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/Scott/PDF...l.P.curtus.pdf

I've examined the head scalation of all 3 of my specimens here, and found the entire scale pattern to be exactly consistent with Python curtus curtus. They also are much much smaller than comparable Python curtus breitensteini that I've personally seen, and certainly more gentle.

Just out of curiosity, how rare is it the find orange headed black bloods such as these? I was under the impression that they were more common than the jet black curtus curtus.

[Beardonicus]

From what I've seen, the blacker Python Curtus are more common here in the states. And also, I have found Borneos to be very gentle if CBB. I have a female who is very sweet as does a friend of mine, except hers is a big male. I also have a P. Curtus baby who is very calm.

[Grant vg]

How ORANGE are there eyes?

I agree that they look similar to borneos... but that is sometimes the case with blacks...
However, those strong head markings are very common in borneos and less common in orange headed blacks.
if your cam is good enough at macros, aerial head scale shots would help to identify them easier....
there not always 100%, but seeing that you have 3...a comparison might be eaiser as far as odds go.
Shots of the scales mainly just behind the frontals would be good.

side angles showing a true representation of there eye colour iintensity would be good too!...

gvg

[Invictus]

David - These guys were CH in Malaysia, so essentially they are wild-bred.

Grant - Their eyes are quite orange, but not as bright as some borneos I've seen. Unfortunately, I don't own a cam, I had to borrow one to take these pics, and it's not very good at all. But like I said, I compared the scalation with particular attention to the nose and ocular scales. P.c.curtus has 3 distinct ocular scales whereas P.c.breitensteini just have the one scale in contact with the eye, and the large scales throughout the subocular region as well. I looked at these bloods very closely under a lamp (I LOVE that they are patient enough to let me do that) and compared it with the top picture in that article - identical. Just for the sake of comparison and accuracy, I compared my Sumatran blood with the Bromgersmai scalation pic - again identical.

So I guess being that they were wild bred and captive hatched, they could only have come from Sumatra... there is no wild intergradation of the species, since Borneo island is completely surrounded by water. If they were CBB, I could imagine they could be curtus/breitensteini crosses, but I don't really think that's possible for wild bred, is it?

[Beardonicus]

My Borneo has a very distinct head......here are some pics:

[Grant vg]

after looking over the shine/barker paper, my blacks heads, as well as your snakes head scalation (which i had pictures previous to you purchasing them) i would have to say i am 100% sure those are borneos.

it is quite obvious to me now, once i sat down and went over the whole scalation complex. Its been a while...so sue me...lol

what you should be looking at is anterior parietals....not the scale between the orbit and upperlabials.

Ill try and give you a photshopped version when i get home from work.
But in the meantime, the frontals are those two BIG scales right inbetween the eyes. they kind of look like a "house" if you leave out the midline suture.
Posterior to these scales, you will probably notice two big square like scales in pretty much full contact with eachother and then a bucnh of little parietals following behind it, basically clustered together.
If so, this would be a borneo.
Now with a true sumatran.....these two anterior parietals would be pushed out, behind the eyes...with little to no contact at the midline suture, with just a bunch of smaller parietals behind the frontal scales.

Seeing that you did not collect them yourself... you cant be so sure where they were shipped from... and i highly doubt that borneos are solely shipped from the island of borneo.
The few places in sumatra are the power houses of the shipping ports and i would not completely leave out the fact that it is a very short boat ride between the two islands.

anyways, im late for work. ill post some pics later tonight to try and clarify things.
regardless of the outcome, they are all nice snakes...

Grant vg

[Beardonicus]

regardless of the outcome, they are all nice snakes.

I agree whole heartedly!

[Invictus]

And this is why I come to this board... this is where the experts are, hehehe

I have to admit I'm disappointed about them being borneos, but they are very nice snakes nonetheless. I was planning on ordering some black bloods from VPI soon anyway. Grant, if you could send me your photoshopped scalation pic anyway, because I'm positive that the head scalation was identical to to a black blood... it didn't look at all like a borneo. But I'll trust your expertise.

BigDan - I think we got burned, man.

[Grant vg]

ok...Here we go...lol

This is a head shot of one of your snakes..



The AP stands for Anterior parietals. these are located directly behind the frontals.
With borneos, a good percentage of them anyways... comes in complete contact at the midline, as do the ones in this pic as well as the other two.
i think in daves extensive experiment it was 30 out of 38 were identical to the snake scales above.

Now this is the scales of my male black.



As you can see the AP's are in no contact with eachother...
This pic is identical to the first head scale on Daves paper.
i believe his paper was Curtus, breitensteini, and brongersmai in that order.
Perhaps you were looking at the wrong one??? or maybe just at the wrong scales...believe me, even i had to read up to make sure i wasn't going scale crazy....lol

And interestingly enough, i looked at my femmes head a little closer and hers come in slight contact... as do some blacks. But rarely would any given three be in full contact.



I also see a BIG difference in eye colour... I've had a nice borneo here with eyes that could compete with any black's eyes, but rarely are they this intense.
and judging by the overall colour and pattern of your snakes, one can only assume borneo.

Anyways.
Very tired.

I Hope you will still keep them and enjoy them.

Grant vg

[Invictus]

S'ok Grant... after a very close re-inspection, then a re-re-inspection, then a re-re-re-inspection, I concur - they are borneos.

Like I said, I am a little disappointed, but the odds are I will keep them. It just means I need to build bigger cages when they get older.

[Borneoblood151]

Hey Grant,
Well done! still lovely animals and I wouldn't get rid of them just because they aren't blacks.
-Angel

[ethan]

Nice orange heads, I prefer those over the all black bloods.I have male about two years old I'm post a picture here one of these days.Hope to see more pics as they grow up. Later, Ethan