pinkie death

[Zoe]

This is a funny debate! anyways you blood doesn't crystalize before you die! so bite me! and if you have alot you are going to end up freezing them anyways no matter what you are killing them they dies there life is over !! and if you freeze them you dont half to deal with wacking the animal till it dies doesn't semm so awful in comparrison

my my, that was coherent. And the "bite me" remark certainly won you lots of respect! I'm impressed.
But seriously, I don't think you're aware of the fact that freezing a body causes massive damage to cells and blood vessels. Why do you think they can't revive frozen bodies, even though they can revive drown victimes or suffocation victimes (even though the outcome may be a diminished mental capacity). As a matter of fact, according to Professor David Pegg of York University, "The problem cryonics has is that they're taking someone who is dead and freezing them which destroys the body's cells. In mammalian tissue, ice forms at quite a 'high' [relatively high] temperature, causing massive damage to the complicated cell structures which make up the internal organs."

Moreover, I think you are missing the point of the argument. YES the pinkies are going to die and YES they are going to be frozen, but that's beyond the point (not to mention, blindingly obvious). The matter at hand is HOW the killing can be done, as humanely as possible. Freezing is NOT humane. I don't know if you've ever been locked out of the house in 30-below weather, but I assure you it isn't pleasant and yes, your cells and veins are ruptured (again, unpleasant) because when water crystalizes (let's not forget, seann, how much of our bodies are made up of water) it increases in volume (you can see that when you freeze water in an ice cube tray).

Zoe

[Nett]

Originally posted by vanderkm
Pinkies and small fuzzies can be killed humanely without breaking the skin by snapping them on the top of the skull with your finger or tapping them with a blunt object. It is fast, effective and easy to do and you can be sure each one is dead before freezing them. Freezing live mammals is not humane.

You want to use enough force to produce immediate unconsciousness and this will result in a dark spot forming on the skull when done correctly. The skin does not break and there is no external bleeding, but the dark spot is from brain hemorrhage that indicates they are unconscious immediately. They may continue to kick due to reflex action from massive nerve stimulation.

mary v.

Yep all u have to do is flick them on the back of the head

[daver676]

Originally posted by Zoe
my my, that was coherent. And the "bite me" remark certainly won you lots of respect! I'm impressed.
But seriously, I don't think you're aware of the fact that freezing a body causes massive damage to cells and blood vessels. Why do you think they can't revive frozen bodies, even though they can revive drown victimes or suffocation victimes (even though the outcome may be a diminished mental capacity). As a matter of fact, according to Professor David Pegg of York University, "The problem cryonics has is that they're taking someone who is dead and freezing them which destroys the body's cells. In mammalian tissue, ice forms at quite a 'high' [relatively high] temperature, causing massive damage to the complicated cell structures which make up the internal organs."

Moreover, I think you are missing the point of the argument. YES the pinkies are going to die and YES they are going to be frozen, but that's beyond the point (not to mention, blindingly obvious). The matter at hand is HOW the killing can be done, as humanely as possible. Freezing is NOT humane. I don't know if you've ever been locked out of the house in 30-below weather, but I assure you it isn't pleasant and yes, your cells and veins are ruptured (again, unpleasant) because when water crystalizes (let's not forget, seann, how much of our bodies are made up of water) it increases in volume (you can see that when you freeze water in an ice cube tray).

Zoe

This is all well and good Zoe, but if the body temperature is getting low enough to crystalize water in the blood (if that is indeed what you're saying), then I can bet you that those animals were already dead BEFORE the freezing took place. And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives. Give me some proof that water can freeze above 0 degrees.

However, I do agree with you in the fact that freezing (not to mention drowning) ANYTHING to death is cruel, irresponsible, and cowardly. Just flick the stupid thing in the back of the head.

[AlexPan]

Hey every one. I did not see any 1 using my method. I poot the pinkes in a ziplock bag, then cloth it, and live them there for a night. What will happen is before they will run out of oxigen, there will be too much (other thing which we exhail) they will simply fall asleep with 100% no pain and never will wake up again.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by daver676
And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives. Give me some proof that water can freeze above 0 degrees.

0 degrees celcius. 32 degrees fahrenheit.

[daver676]

Originally posted by AlexPan
Hey every one. I did not see any 1 using my method. I poot the pinkes in a ziplock bag, then cloth it, and live them there for a night. What will happen is before they will run out of oxigen, there will be too much (other thing which we exhail) they will simply fall asleep with 100% no pain and never will wake up again.

Wow. That is also a very cruel method. Stop being a wuss and whack 'um!

0 degrees celcius. 32 degrees fahrenheit.

Thanks for the clarification genius.

[Zoe]

but if the body temperature is getting low enough to crystalize water in the blood (if that is indeed what you're saying), then I can bet you that those animals were already dead BEFORE the freezing took place. And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives.

Not necessarily. The animal would be dead before the full effects kicked in, of course, but pinkies are very stoic and can survive long periods of time in the freezer... they are still alive and moving when their limbs have begun to freeze. It's not as though they simply fall asleep and THEN freeze all in one shot; it's a slow, painful process.
Thanks for the physics lesson (I think we're all aware that water freezes at 0C...), but no where does it say that water freezes over 0 degrees C. The term "high" was placed in quotation marks to indicate the fact that the speaker was refering to relatively high, which means high in relation to another number. If that other number is -30C, then 'high' could very well mean 0C.

Zoe

[mykee]

Children....

[daver676]

they are still alive and moving when their limbs have begun to freeze.

You were talking about blood crystalizing in the viens, not whether the limbs freeze first.

but no where does it say that water freezes over 0 degrees C.

I realize that, but the surrounding area of the blood vessel/vien/artery would need to be at or below 0C before the blood were to begin to freeze.

My arguement here is the fact that you say that blood will crystalize in the mammal's body while it is still alive. It won't. If it can, then show me where you found this information, and I will gladly read it.

[Zoe]

Limbs freeze long before the rest of the body does. The body of a mammal will allow limbs to freeze sooner in order to protect the internal organs with as much blood as possible.
Blood DOES crystalize in veins, and quite rapidly in veins in arms, legs, tail. The feet of a pink mouse will be 0C and their internal organs may almost be normal.
If the leg is frozen, then obviously it's at 0C and there is no more blood circulating in the limb > the blood has frozen > frozen = crystalized > blood is in veins > blood has crystalized in veins. That HAS to happen for a limb to freeze. You can't have a frozen finger if there is still blood moving through it.

Zoe

[marylyn101]

thanks..... also with freezing you lose a lot of the good cells that make up most of the feed. it's just the crappy none nutritional stuff left.

[AlexPan]

That is soo true marylyn101!

[Kimo]

just some thoughts, and perhaps a question...in regards to freezing pinkies

first off, i was under the impression that the nervous system of a pinky is not fully developed at birth, hence why pinkies need their mother to stimulate their bladder after feeding, to make them urinate, and secondly whats the big deal with freezing a pinky? or even whacking it on the head, or breaking its spine, or just feeding them live to whatever herp you may own? either way i see it, dead is dead your killing the animal one way or the other am i right or wrong here? point is if you really cared about the mouse, why are you feeding it to a snake/lizard/amphibian whatever you may own? personally when i had my burm i froze em and they where generally dead within a few minutes, yes it may be uncomfortable for the pinkie for the first few minutes before it falls asleep to conserve body heat and energy, but at that point i think their brain has pretty much stopped registering "pain" assuming of course that my previous theory is incorrect, not saying i know anything factual here, but just thought i'd bring my "two pennies" to the table :P

Kimo

[mykee]

Kimo, I understand what you are saying, but look at it this way, if it doesn't matter how it's killed, and that it'll end up dead either way think about this: Your dog is terminally ill and needs to be put down. Do you stick it's head in a plastic bag, and hold it's body from shaking for 6 minutes until it suffocates? I'm hoping you say no. So, why not the same respect for a mouse or rat? Being snake owners, we get enough flack. Why increase that flack by killing our pets natural prey items slowly and painfully? It's our responsibility as snake owners to kill a food item as quickly and painlessly as possible. Cervical dislocation (which I am not a fan of, simply because it's much too hands-on for me), CO2 chamber or a quick whack seem to be the most humane.

[Dani33]

I also believe that any animal should be put down as QUICKLY and HUMANLEY as possible. Think about it this way, when it comes time for you to die - would you like to be SUFFOCATED, DROWNED or FROZEN to DEATH!!!! I think not, I hope to god that when it comes my time that I die peacefully. I would prefer to die instantaneously (preferably asleep). This is rediculous. Haven't any of you read about accounts of frost bite? Anyone who has suffered it would tell you that it was extremely painful. How would any of you like to die alive while your limbs are freezing? I think that it's disgusting and cowardly. Although we feed them to our reptiles, they are still life and deserve respect. I don't kill my own, I buy frozen just so that I can avoid doing this myself. Where I purchase them, they are killed using CO2.