best substrate for box turtles

[eyespy]

I'm not a fan of soils and mosses. Both are perfect breeding grounds for fungi. About 2/3 of the herps kept on mosses that come through my rescue culture positive for aspergillosis. That's a highly toxic fungus that can cause pneumonia, digestive tract infections, and kidney failure.

[SCReptiles]

What is yout take on the hay?

[eyespy]

I use hay, combined with bed a beast. There is a slight mold risk with hay, but less because it contains less protein than soils and mosses. When combined with the higher acid content of ground coconut husk it minimized the mold risk even more.

I do avoid alfalfa hay, which does have a worrisome protein level. I use either timothy or orchard grass hay.

[ReptileHQ]

We are talking about box turtles here. Animals which are exposed to many different toxins in the wild. They live in rotting vegetation and swamps and soils. It provides high humidity micro-climate opportunities, which this genus of turtle needs to thrive. Hay just does not provide the proper humidity levels. ground coconut mixed with sand, is a much better choice.

I would be more worried about pulmonary aspergillosis in species which do not come in contact with loamy and decomposing soil substrates in the wild. Box turtles live in the stuff and eat highly toxic fungi, their bodies have evolved to cope with it.

Depth of substrate is also very important with NA box turtles. I would say 6 inches deep as an absolute minimum, for two reasons...1) a box turtle will "dig in" every evening when it retires until the morning, having only the top of its shell and its head exposed....and 2) it provides a deep enough layer for egg laying....many females will retain eggs when not provided with a deep enough substrate or the wrong type of substrate.

As with any organic substrate, change it frequently.

Chris

[eyespy]

Yes, that is very true that they encounter the stuff in the wild, but only wild-caught boxies have such immunities. Herps are not born with any immunities since they get no blood from their mothers. It is only by encountering and fighting off pathogens in their daily life that they acquire antibodies. Many die rather than form the antibodies that will enable them to survive. It is a small minority that survive long enough to form immunity from these toxins.

Captive bred boxies are no more able to fight off aspergillosis than something like a uromastyx. In fact, they get pulmonary aspergillosis at much higher rates.

[ReptileHQ]

box turtles born in captivity most definitely aquire antibodies in much the same way as wild ones.

Ones kept in more sanitary conditions on proper substrates do very well. I have never lost a box turtle which I have hatched. 100% of them have thrived...

Uromastyx, bearded dragons, so on, as I mentioned above are more prone to pathogens such as aspergillosis because they rarely encounter it in the wild.

The biggest killer of captive box turtles is dehydration....which is directly linked to substrate choice....I have never encountered a case of aspergillosis in any of my box turtles. If kept correctly, an animals immune system is much stronger and can fight these nasties off....

A good strong earthworm will thrive in aspergillosis filled earth....but take him out of the earth and keep him in hay and see what happens....he'll look like a piece of beef jerky in no time.....LOL

Chris

[eyespy]

I looked up the diagnoses for the herps that came through our rescue clinic in 2002. We had 154 cases of aspergillosis in box turtles, 231 in redfoot tortoises, 9 in uros, and none in bearded dragons.

Out of those 154 cases, 139 were kept on peat and/or sphagnum moss. When switched to hay/coconut husk mixture many cases resolved with limited or no antifungal usage. Only 8 turtles required longterm systemic meds after removing the mosses.

Kidney failure is the usual first sign that a box turtle has aspergillosis, very few develop noticable respiratory symptoms as it tends to lodge so deeply in lung tissue that rasps and wheezing are seldom heard without a stethoscope. We detect our cases through culturing a nasal swabbing. Bloodwork usually reveals kidney strain in even mild cases with no respiratory system involvement.

[ReptileHQ]

If you run a rescue clinic, I would imagine that the majority of the animals you receive are not in the best of shape when they get there in the first place, and I would point the finger at this first.

Dehydration is the #1 killer of box turtles, this can then lead to a number of other ailments because of a weakened immune system.

You received 385 redfoots and box turtles with aspergillosis in one year? Wow, you said 2/3 of them had it which means you receive 600 per annum??? You must run one of the biggest reptile rescues in the world, do you have a website?

Chris

[eyespy]

It's one of 3 clinics that are run by the Veterinary Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania where I work part-time that gets the majority of the cases, the Special Species Clinic. That clinic sees around 2,000 cases a week. Roughly 500-700 of those are reptiles.

My own rescue is funded by a grant through Penn and takes in post-ops from that clinic plus VHUP's 3 hospitals that are not able to go home yet. I take in 5-15 herps a week. Most had surgery on Saturday and will go back to VHUP or their owners on the following Monday.

Most of these animals are neither neglected nor surrendered, they are just too sick to go back to their owners and that is why they need me. I don't take any cases that require rehoming as I find that too stressfull. I just keep them while they need feeding tubes, IVs, injections, wound drains, an d other stuff the owners don't feel confident doing on their own.

[gfisher2002]

Wow, you gotta post some picsa for me. If you go through that many herps in a week, I'd love to see the facilities. You must know alot then. Are you a Vet? Biologist? Just curious. Sounds like the world's best herp job ever!

[eyespy]

I was a certified veterinary surgical tech until I became disabled by a latex allergy in 6/2000. Now I'm a licensed wildlife rehabber and don't actually step foot in the hospitals or clinic because of my allergy. But since it was my work that caused my disability, my rescue operation is funded through the hospital.

I'll see if one of my vet friends has some pics to share. It might take a while though. Here in PA the code of medical ethics is not split between veterinary and human medicine. So we're bound by the same patient privacy laws and need written permission from the owners before publishing pics or case histories, except in limited academic settings.

[LISA127]

Sooo......should I just stick to the Eco Earth bedding I've been using so far??

[eyespy]

I love Eco Earth for turtles and torts but I also give them a mound of hay in one corner because many of them seem to prefer burrowing through that.

[ReptileHQ]

Hi, oddly enough when I contacted the fine people at the "Special Species clinic" at the University of Pennsylvania, they told me that in an average week they see about 12 reptiles in total through emergency and appointments......yes I said 12...1 dozen. This is a far cry from...... 700 reptiles a week you said? They only make appointments for reptiles twice a week because as they put it "it is a small part of our practice". They don't see reptiles in any other clinic at the university either. So, are the other 688 reptiles a week treated by you?

Eco-earth, being organic, decomposes in much the same way as the other substrates mentioned, thus potentially harboring aspergillosis.

Chris

[LISA127]

hmmm......so, organic potting soil? eco earth? hay? i still don't know what to go with....