feeding

[Chris_Flowers]

I don't agree with the suffocation method. Whenever I see animals being treated cruely or being killed I always automatically put myself in their shoes, so-to-speak. Suffocation is a long horrible way to die.

Obviously being put to sleep or severed at the spine is, in most cases, quick, painless and humane.

Personally I don't agree with breeding and killing the mouse anyway, especially when they are readily available in varying sizes frozen. Ok so we don't know how they've been killed when bought frozen from the shop, but nine out of ten times they've been put down humanely.

Maybe its just me, maybe I couldn't bring myself to do it - but then, I wouldn't want to do it. I love snakes, but I love all animals/creatures. I rescue spiders and insects from my house and put them outside when others in my family would just kill them!

[Zoe]

snakehunter... that is a most inhumane method of killing your rats, to suffocate them hemostats?

Chris - petstores don't always kill their rodents humanely. I know a couple petstores that kill babies by just sticking them in the freezer, and adults by suffocating them. :\

I just whack mine against a desk or a wall. That works pretty well, kills them instantly.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by Zoe
Chris - petstores don't always kill their rodents humanely. I know a couple petstores that kill babies by just sticking them in the freezer, and adults by suffocating them. :\

That's why I said nine out of ten times! I'm under no illusion that there will be some pet stores that kill inhumanely, but from a personal perspective I'd rather live in ignorance and assume they've killed them humanely. To kill them some of the ways I've read from people here and other snake/reptile owners, I just don't agree with it.

I just whack mine against a desk or a wall. That works pretty well, kills them instantly.

And theres another one I don't agree with!

It must just be me then. I just couldn't bring myself to kill them

[Zoe]

Lol chris i hear you! I would rather not kill them myself either. But I still don't think 9/10 petstores kill them humanely.

Also, whacking them against a desk or wall is violent, but it kills them painlessly and instantly.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Well I think I've said my piece on this issue. I'm just a strong believer of any cruelty to any animals. I don't take it as far as some do though, like these often crazy animal activists who do some crazy things.

I say cruelty, because if somebody was whacking mice against a wall or desk for amusement/pleasure then the RSPCA (speaking in the UK of course) would have a case on their hands for 'Cruelty To Animals'. Just because your doing it to feed another animal, doesn't change the act that resulted in the death of the animal.

As for pet stores, ok its fair to say niether of us really have an idea of how they are killed in pet shops, or at least don't have accurate figures to say something like '9/10 don't' etc.

[lordkovacs]

i agree with zoe... i have bought from 4 different shops over the years, and they ALL do the same... put them in a freezer live. I got to know most that work in the rep. departments, and it's all the same. maybe it's just coincidence that it's 4 / 4 for me...
cheers,
MIKE
oh, I sometimes am able to go in the back and get my own rats from the freezer, and I have seen for myself rats in a bag that are still half alive, and suffocating. It's AWFUL to see. Once, I grabbed a bag, opened it, and thumped all the rats on the head to put them out of their misery...
later,
MIKE

[marisa]

Chris_Flowers - For one I don't agree with making statements you cannot show proof of. I totally understand how you FEEL but that doesn't mean whacking mice IS inhumaine. In fact they way WE whack mice, they are dead instantly. We use a large screwdrive handle and they recieve one blow on the head. Not the face, not the neck, the head. So when does the suffering come in??? If you have links that prove a mouse killed instantly still suffers, I'd love to see them. And sure at first a few DID suffer, but with a SHORT amount of pratice you can kill them instantly.

Secondly, its fine that YOU feel that way but you can't pass off your feelings as facts. Saying things that you feel about certain methods about them being cruel is totally fine. That's how you feel. But it doesn't mean that its cruel for a fact. Many many people use Co2, this is an APPROVED method in the USA. And used by vets. Again you may feel this is "sad" or cruel, but that is not a *Fact* You see what I am saying? I am not coming down on you or personally attacking you or saying you are wrong. Just saying that a feeling you have doesn't make it fact. Some methods ARE cruel, but not all.

And frankly I CAN'T buy frozen mice. I live in an area that doesn't sell to many people, which makes feeders double or triple the normal price, and they still often only come live. If I used credit cards, sure I may order them. But then again my mice aren't suffering and they are killed humainly so I sleep just fine at night.

Marisa

[marisa]

Oh BTW Again its all jUST Discussion>

Marisa

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by marisa
For one I don't agree with making statements you cannot show proof of.

Did I, or did I not say that none of us have hard facts about the way pet shops kill mice!? Ok my first post on the issue said 'nine out of ten times' but it was hardly a FACT. Besides, you cannot show proof that they do kill mice inhumanely.

I totally understand how you FEEL but that doesn't mean whacking mice IS inhumaine. In fact they way WE whack mice, they are dead instantly. We use a large screwdrive handle and they recieve one blow on the head. Not the face, not the neck, the head. So when does the suffering come in??? If you have links that prove a mouse killed instantly still suffers, I'd love to see them.

I'm sure there are many people outside this forum who would disagree with you that killing mice by whacking them is humane.

Besides, Zoe did not say she took a large instrument and whacked the mouse on the head. She STATED FACT that she whacks them against a wall or desk.

Do you think you would suffer if someone grabbed you by the legs and whacked you against a wall or desk? Would you feel the same if you had to kill a snake this way, but its ok because its to feed to another animal?

And sure at first a few DID suffer, but with a SHORT amount of pratice you can kill them instantly.

So the method is flawed. Can you say for a FACT that everytime you do this the mouse dies instantly then? And can you back this up with PROOF?

Secondly, its fine that YOU feel that way but you can't pass off your feelings as facts. Saying things that you feel about certain methods about them being cruel is totally fine. That's how you feel. But it doesn't mean that its cruel for a fact.

I'd appreciate it if you could point me to a post where I said 'its a FACT' or similar please. In FACT, I believe I even said 'maybe its just me' and 'I couldn't presonally do it'.

Many many people use Co2, this is an APPROVED method in the USA. And used by vets. Again you may feel this is "sad" or cruel, but that is not a *Fact* You see what I am saying?

Now you are assuming I think all methods are 'sad or cruel', when this is far from true. I don't have a problem with the Co2 method. As you state, its approved in the USA. Now I'm sure the authorities have approved that method because they've found its the most humane way.

Show me a legislation that says 'whacking mice with a large instrument/against a wall or desk is the humane way to kill them' and I'll take back what I've said.

And no, I don't see what you are saying to be honest. It could be said 'you have a FEELING that mice do not suffer when killed by a whack to the head' and that you're promoting this as 'FACT' when you have no hard evidence yourself as to the credibility of this statement.

[B]I am not coming down on you or personally attacking you or saying you are wrong. Just saying that a feeling you have doesn't make it fact. Some methods ARE cruel, but not all.

Agreed.

And frankly I CAN'T buy frozen mice. I live in an area that doesn't sell to many people, which makes feeders double or triple the normal price, and they still often only come live. If I used credit cards, sure I may order them.

Reptiles as pets are small business here in the UK in comparrison to the USA, yet I can buy frozen mice from a reptile shop 20 miles away from me. I haven't been there yet, but I've been told the garden centre in my town actually sells frozen mice!
I do not believe for one minute that there is not a single shop within a certain radius of your area. You say you have no credit cards like its the only method of payment with regards to online ordering/mail order when this is clearly not true. Debit cards and cheques are amongst other methods of payment widely accepted.

But then again my mice aren't suffering and they are killed humainly so I sleep just fine at night.

Yet you feel the need to voice this and reassure yourself

As you have stated, this is not a personal attack on you, its a discussion/debate. As I have expressed my feelings so have you.

[drewlowe]

Chris i understand how you feel about killing mice. when i started keeping snakes i hated it but it's something you have to do. and our snakes have to eat. This is something us herpers take into consideration when we devote our time into this hobby. I personally like ALL animals but i have and will do if need be *flick* a mouse in the back of the head. I know i sound so cruel but trust me im not and neither is the procedure. you will find there are alot of us out there that have an will kill a mouse or rat. Would you rather us feed live prey and have the mouse kill or injure the snake. Plus i "think" the snake killing the mouse would be more painful than us flicking, hitting with a blunt object or banging on a hard object. Just my thought on this subject.

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by drewlowe
but it's something you have to do.

I accept your points but this I'm afraid I have to disagree. It would be 'something you have to do' if there were no alternative, but we all know frozen is readily available.

and our snakes have to eat. This is something us herpers take into consideration when we devote our time into this hobby.

Absolutely. Its something I took into consideration before purchasing my snake (feeding that is, not killing my own prey).

I personally like ALL animals but i have and will do if need be *flick* a mouse in the back of the head. I know i sound so cruel but trust me im not and neither is the procedure.

I'll not say another word on this point, we've been here in this thread several times already.

you will find there are alot of us out there that have an will kill a mouse or rat. Would you rather us feed live prey and have the mouse kill or injure the snake. Plus i "think" the snake killing the mouse would be more painful than us flicking, hitting with a blunt object or banging on a hard object. Just my thought on this subject.

I'm under no illusion that there are many out there that do kill there own mice/rats etc.
To be honest, I'm not in any position, nor am I here to stop anyone killing how/if they want. I do not have anything against these same people. All I'm doing is expressing my feeling and opinion on the subject.

[marisa]

It's nice that frozen is readily available TO YOU! Here it not only costs more, but like I mentioned its normally live from pet stores where I live. You cannot judge people because they do not buy frozen. You didn't just share your feelings, you called the methods that most of the snake community uses to kill mice, "cruel" when in fact someone killed the mice in YOUR freezer! Regardles how it was done, that just seems a little crazy to me.


You say: And no, I don't see what you are saying to be honest. It could be said 'you have a FEELING that mice do not suffer when killed by a whack to the head' and that you're promoting this as 'FACT' when you have no hard evidence yourself as to the credibility of this statement."

And, neither do you. You have less if anything since you have admitted you do not practice this method, and I do. I have killed about 1500 or more mice this way. So in fact, if anyone wants a credibility arguement, you couldn't participate because you have tried NONE of these things yourself. Which (experience) would be the starting point to any arguement.

I am SOOO happy you live in a wonderful place that sells cheap frozen feeders. How many snakes do you own BTW? I'd like to know. Because if you are feeding more than a few, you try ordering frozen with MY *local* prices! Regardless of that, your feelings are YOUR feelings. But telling people its CRUEL is not right IMHO because if none of us know for sure what gives the least pain, then you don't either. Plain and simple.

Its nice and cute that you "put yourself in the animals place" but you aren't a rodent, you aren't a mouse and you have NO CLUE about their systems and what they do or do not go through using various killing methods. Putting yourself in the animals place is fine if its a human. But it has literally no logical basis when you are trying to assume how another animal feels. They simply do NOT posess our "feelings" not to say they don't feel pain but it really makes no sense to "be the mouse" I understand the "emotional" side of it for you, but personally I keep my human emotions out of snake keeping as in the end it leads to more problems that good.

I suppose we should end this. You will continue to believe what ever you want is cruel, yet still keep the by-product in your freezer, while I will actually work in my experience with the methods of getting the snake food to my freezer. Good luck to you!

Marisa

[V.hb]

Originally posted by Zoe

Also, whacking them against a desk or wall is violent, but it kills them painlessly and instantly.

I dont want to argue this....... But thats completely false.... how do you know it kills it painlessly, and instantly? Ive seen rodents get hit against concrete and still kick.... There is NO humane way to kill anything...... anyway you do it, you're killing an animal and ultimatly when you are being killed with force, its gonna hurt.


The only method I feel is somewhat humane is gassing... Yes, it suffocates them, however they're asleep quite rapidly, they dont struggle as with being gagged with tools, or someones hands.... which can lead to broken bones, noses, fractures etc..

[V.hb]

marisa, people who worry about inhumane killing of their animals food usually purchase from a known reputable supplier..... most people who mass produce rodents dont stand there snapping necks one by one..

[emerglife]

they gas them with co2. me i have a baton i use for adult mice one hit and its game over