Feeding Gerbils Instead of Mice or Rats

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah I forgot about that Mary, great point. If you ever need to sell your Ball Pythons in the future, not many people are going to be interested in a gerbil feeder.

Things to think about...

[fr0glet]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I was referring to people who said that they heard stuff and now think it to be true without proving it on their own accord, thus having no point of reference for very very false statements.

The March, 2003, issue of Natural History magazine has an article completely backing up the power feeding = shortened life span stance. The article was based on controlled research. Hope this helps clear things up, you should be able to find an archived copy at a University library within a month or two. There's also a supporting article in Evolution 56: 1867-70, September 2002, under the title "Growth to Death in Lizards".

So I am still waiting for people's definition of power feeding. If we're gonna make definitions of terms that don't exist, we might as well make them somewhat true, right?

In my opinion power feeding would consist of feeding as soon as the animal defecates, multiple prey items every time. I don't have a problem with feeding right after they poo or feeding more than one prey item, but not a consistent basis.

Also, unknownclown, meat:bone ratios per ounce are higher in rats than mice or gerbils.

HTH all.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by unknownclown
[B]I dont wanna switch them to rats because my daughter gets too attached I dont have the space and personaly I also get a bit attached. They may not be as cute as gerbils but they are 10 times more friendly than the gerbils I have. I cant walk by without them rushing the cage so I can pet them.
WHY oh WHY must they like me so dang much!

lol we have that problem too... katey came up with the idea to sell rats to pet stores for pets and we would use the money to buy frozen feeders. to me that sounds like a bit more work. how ever neither of us likes killing rats (mice are lots easier). once we have the death chamber set up things should be easier.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No it doesn't clear things up.

1) We're not talking about lizards, we're talking about BP's. next thing you'll say that you can over-feed rabbits and guinea pigs. Topic is and was snakes.

2) Poperly kept snakes are almost impossible to over feed. Almost every breeder I've talked with concurs over the years. I trust the wisdom of people who've worked with thousands of these animals over numerous generations more than magazine articles and univeristy periodicals. Just my opinion.

[unknownclown]

Good point Mary and Jeff my snakes are here for good though just like the dog, the cat, my male bunny and the kid. They are a part of my family now and no matter how much I wish you could you just cant sell your family off Im a pretty stable 33 year old bat with my own place. Im not goin anywhere.
But if something happens to me or god knows what and we do have to part our ways I can always supply whomever takes my little darlings with my gerbil colonies. Hell if Im gettin rid of the snakes I sure as heck dont need the gerbils anymore.

[fr0glet]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
No it doesn't clear things up.

1) We're not talking about lizards, we're talking about BP's. next thing you'll say that you can over-feed rabbits and guinea pigs. Topic is and was snakes.

2) Poperly kept snakes are almost impossible to over feed. Almost every breeder I've talked with concurs over the years. I trust the wisdom of people who've worked with thousands of these animals over numerous generations more than magazine articles and univeristy periodicals. Just my opinion.

Well Jeff, if it doesn't clear it up it at least lends some credence to the statement (which I believe you were calling for, credence that is) that power feeding can reduce a herp's life span.

Re: 1) You're right. The articles were on lizards. However the research can still be deemed at the very least relevant, as it is reptilian.

Re: 2) Very valid points on people who have worked numerous generations, however the articles I mentioned were also drawn on research by people who have many years experience with the animals in question. Perhaps as much (or more) as your friends. The journals hosting the articles are to be considered reputable sources for research.

My somewhat flippant comment "hope this clears things up" was substantiating that there is indeed research and evidence to the contrary of what you believe. I think you said (not quoting, paraphrasing) that people making incorrect statements should keep their mouths shut rather than present misinformation.

I would ask you to consider the possibility that the opposition to your argument is indeed viable. In any case, it is obvious that a more specific controlled experiment (with BPs, of course) is called for if a true result is to be found.

You have my highest regards,
fr0glet

[Lisa]

Hey what about hamsters? how do they compare to gerbils.

[unknownclown]

Thats something else Ive wondered about Lisa. I mean I load my rodents up on a high protien diet just imagine how much more the snake would be getting since they not only eat it but cram thier cheeks with food they havent eaten yet. Although I dont know anything about a snakes digestive system to know if they would be able to handle it so I havent tried it.

[Jeff_Favelle]

unknownclown :


Its been shown that the best diet for feeder rodents is a low-protein diet. This can be accomplished with the crappiest dog food available.

Reason? Well think what a snake eats in the wild. Wild rodents. And what do those wild rodents eat? Well, they most certainly don't chase down rabbits and deer and eat them, LOL! Nope. They eat seeds, plant tubers, nuts, etc etc etc. Things low in protein. I know it sounds weird, but rodents have more than enough protein for your snakes on their own. They don't need to be fed high-protein diets. Most of that stuff was worked out 20 years ago.

Best of luck.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Froglet, I totally agree. While the lizard research is indeed valuable and somewhat relevant, only concrete, and therefore useful, answers will be found in controlled and rigorous experiments with the species in question. Problem is, no university in their right minds is going to research it, and no breeder in the world is going to waste their time and animals to bother. Not to mention its going to take way way too long to prove anything either way definitely. And experiments that are big in space and time generally don't get done.

And that leaves us to speculate.

Or.....

We can use the information we have and extrapolate:

People have been breeding Ball Pythons (and other snakes) for decades now and the people who were the first breeders are still feeding their snakes as much as they will eat. Now, if these snakes were dying off, you'd think they'd change their practices no? I mean, especially when dealing with $20,000 Balls.

But again, its not a definite answer.

Tough call....

[unknownclown]

I like ya Jeff you like a good debate just like I do, unfortunately I cant contribute much since I am still learning.

Although it would be realy hillarious and entertaining to see a rat bring down a deer, ( Now I got that killer bunny from the Holy Grail stuck in my head) Im with you it wont ever happen. (I hope) And since it wont ever happen I wont ever have to worry about throwing a T bone or even stew meat into their cages at feeding time But I think wild rats and mice do indulge quite a bit in eating bugs and worms which are very high in protien. Once again you wont catch me throwing worms, moths and beetles in thier cages either. What I give them though to replace the lack of bugs in thier diet is dog and cat food along with kidney beans, sunflower seeds and dried split peas. Of course I mix in other things as well there is the rabbit pellets for the greens they are lacking and corn, cherios and oat meal for the grains they arent getting as well.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Holy Grail. Too funny. Almost as funny as the Meaning of Life!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

But to really learn, you have to participate in the debates you see on these forums. Remember studying for school and reading gobs of books and periodicals? How much of that actually sunk in and stuck? Maybe 10%? If you don't participate, then learning will be that hard.

Cheers.

[tHeGiNo]

My lord Jeff, THANK YOU. Please, everyone who is saying this, where and what proof that you have that giving more then one food item is powerfeeding? I have always been speculation on what powerfeeding is, as I always see people referring to this term. However, as apparant here, it seems there IS no definition of power feeding. I feed my female 2 adult mice every week, is that powerfeeding because I am giving her more then one prey item?

[DavidBeard]

I don't think that power-feeding entails more than one prey item. You could feed x numer of mice that would equal x number of rats or whatever. I think power-feeding has more to do with frequency than anything. If you feed your snake every 3 days, that is excessive and would be considered power-feeding. You have to find a right balance between frequency and prey size that properly fits your snake's size, age, etc.